Episode 55 – How to get work experience, a work placement or an internship, with Steve Rook

January 21, 2017 Podcast

In episode 55 of the Graduate Job Podcast, I am re-joined by one of my most popular guests, Steve Rook, as we discuss his new book Work Experience, Placements and Internships. In this episode, Steve shares his brilliant insights and tips into how to go about getting that ever so important work experience. We discuss the difference between work experience, internships and placements, why you really need to try and get them, and the real reason why they will set you apart in your job search. We cover the thorny topic of unpaid, versus paid work experience, we explore just why sandwich placements make such a difference to your career prospects and why you should think about going abroad to get work experience, and how it might be cheaper than you think. Once you got some work experience we then look into how to hit the ground running and make it a success. In short, if you’ve ever thought about trying to get work experience or an internship, this is an episode you won’t want to miss. As always, all links to everything we discuss and a full transcript are available in the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/workexperience. Right, let’s head straight over to my chat with Steve.

MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT:

  • The difference between work experience, work placements and internships
  • Why you NEED to get work experience
  • The REAL reason work experience will set you apart
  • How it is NEVER too late to get work experience
  • Why sandwich placements are the gold standard of work experience
  • Why you should think about doing your work experience, internship or placement abroad
  • How to hit the ground running in your work experience, internship or placement

SELECTED LINKS:

RELATED EPISODES:

If you liked this episode check these out:

  • My first interview with Steve
  • My interview with Rob Bence where he discusses the most effective way to apply for work experience

Transcript – Episode 55 – How to get work experience, a work placement or an internship, with Steve Rook

James: Welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, with your host James Curran. The Graduate Job Podcast is your weekly home for all things related to helping you on your journey to finding that amazing job. Each week I bring together the best minds in the industry, speaking to leading authors, entrepreneurs, coaches and bloggers who bring decades of experience into a byte size weekly 30 minute show. Put simply, this is the show I wish I had a decade ago when I graduated.

James: Hello and a very warm welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast. For episode 55 I am re-joined by one of my most popular guests, Steve Rook, as we discuss his recent book Work Experience, Placements and Internships. In this episode Steve shares his brilliant  insights and tips into how to go about getting that ever so important work experience. We discuss the difference between work experience, internships and placements, why you really need to try and get them, and the real reason why they will set you apart in your jobsearch. We cover the thorny topic of unpaid, versus paid work experience, we explore just why sandwich placements make such a difference to your career prospects and why you should think about going abroad to get work experience, and how it might be cheaper than you think. Once you got some work experience we then look into how to hit the ground running and make it success. In short, if you’ve ever thought about trying to get work experience or an internship, this is an episode you won’t want to miss. As always, all links to everything we discuss and a full transcript are available in the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/workexperience. Right, let’s head straight over to my chat with Steve.

James: I’m very pleased to welcome back to the show today, one of my most popular guests. Bestselling author of the excellent Graduate Career Guidebook, and author of the recently released, Work Experience, Placements and Internships. A very warm welcome to Steve Rook.

Steve: G’Day James. I’m not used to being lauded so much, but keep it up I love it.

James: Steve can you believe it’s nearly two years since you appeared back on episode 4.

Steve: Oh gosh, I’m fifty now, fifty. Five-0. So you better hurry up and get all your interviews out. I’m running out of time here.

James: So apart from reaching the big five-o and writing the book, what have you been up to over the last two years?

Steve: Gosh. We went over to Australia for a while. I was going to work over there but I changed my mind and came back. Just going, same thing I’m writing a novel now, using the skills I gained from writing non-fiction to try to go in to fiction. That’s fun. Just walking the dog and enjoying my life.

James: Excellent, that’s what it’s all about. And what’s the non-fiction book going to be about? Sorry your fiction book going to be about?

Steve: At the moment, it’s going to be about the next American election, where the Presidential candidate, a socialist, is blown up because people don’t want him to get in and a guy is on the run.

James: Nice and topical for the current election. Ah well keep us posted on how that goes.

Steve: It’ll be in all cinemas near you.

James: You heard it here first folks. Now listeners as I mentioned, back in episode 4, if you’ve not already heard it, it’s one of my most popular episodes. Check it out at graduatejobpodcast.com/careerplanning. And today we’re going to explore Steve’s recent book, Work Experience, Placements and Internships. So Steve, kicking off with a nice easy one just to make sure everybody’s clear, what do you mean when we use the terms Work Experience, Work Placement and Internship? What’s the difference between them all?

Steve: Fair enough James. It’s a moveable feast. I’ll tell you how I see it. Different people have different views. That can get confusing when you see it written down in different papers meaning different things. But at the same time, the actual lessons to be learned from each are the same, so it doesn’t really make that much difference. Work experience isn’t just something you do at school when you’re 16 and they send you to the hairdressers. It’s something we do all our lives. When you’re at work, you’re doing work experience because you’re at work. When you’re at home reading the paper, that’s work experience because you’re learning about things to do with work.  It’s hard to define, but for me work experience is anything that gives you the skills towards developing your career and finding a fulfilling life. Placements probably a more formal term that includes some sort of link between education and work. So you might do it as part of a degree. But again, that’s becoming more and more fluid. Internships, when I first went into careers work, only 16 years ago, were things you did between either, for a year between your second year and your final year at University, or you did over the summer at the same time. But they broaden out to mean almost, work experience and internships have become almost synonymous now because companies are starting to call every bit of experience an internship. So as you see they’re all movable things. But I’ve tried to split them up into Work Experience being a general term, Placements being something to do with academic work and Internships as being more formal, sort of placements where some sort of training is provided.

James: Listeners might be thinking, well I’ve got a good degree from a good University, why do I need to bother with work experience? Why can’t I just go straight to the companies and start applying?

Steve: Well, that’s a very good question. There’s a few elements to that. If you’ve got a very good degree from a very good University you do have to pay less heed to work experience. If you’ve got an ordinary degree from an ordinary university, without being too politically correct. Then you need more and more work experience. Either way, it’s a double-edged sword because what you’ve got to appreciate is that at least 50% of the advantage of work experience, is for yourself. So you get a good degree from a good University and then say right, what’s the highest paying job I can find? Go into that. Well you haven’t sat down and said well, will I enjoy it? Will I find that fulfilling? And if you don’t like it you’re not going to do any good at it, so you’re going to fail. So work experience, I’d say at least 50% is to make sure that you know what you’re going into and you quite like it. See it as more positively as a thing for you, rather than a thing for someone else.

James: That’s a really good point and I think often, people see work experience solely as something they need to get so they can get the job. As opposed to, as you just mentioned, thinking about it for the work experience is going to help me to shape, what exactly it is I want to do. And how I can then maybe help shape my further career aspirations of what I want to do going forward.

Steve: Exactly.

James: So you’ve convinced me then that it’s important and I need to get some work experience. How can I go about starting to plan my career path, with getting some work experience?

Steve: I think this probably the area where, why I went into careers work and why I’ve written books. I was completely lost after University, completely. Because it’s just too daunting and I think it’s much more daunting now. I think you’ve got to take the pressure off yourself, because anyone who’s young now is going to live until 100 probably. There’s no great rush. You feel you’ve got to get this done. People you see books like this in places. I think you start out by just getting anything, getting out there. And getting involved in things at college, joining the wine society, helping out at your cricket club if you play cricket. Just doing things and getting involved and then maybe volunteering at a refugee centre if you want to go into something like, for example law in the public service of whatever. It’s a case of just getting out there and getting involved. The advantage of that is that people have a limited experience. We all have by definition a limited experience. I’ve never climbed Mount Everest; I’ve never met a professional surfer; all of us have limited experience. Therefore the first thing to do is to get out there and get more experience. Get more used to being with people. There’s a thing called social capital, which basically means your capital, think of it in terms of investments. What you’ve got stored up in terms of socialising, in terms of getting on with people. People who grew up in wealthy families or families with good contacts, families where you happen to have neighbours in a wide range of things, often have a massive advantage because they’re used to mixing in these circles. But a lot of us didn’t. So for us, going into a professional environment for the first time is just scary. We don’t fit our suit, because we’re cowering and we look strange. So the first thing about work experience is getting out there and just feeling you’re part of the game. Then as you move on and you start to target, which I think is really quite important, the particular role that you’re looking for, then you need to start looking for more experience and use your networks that you’ve already got to work towards more specific roles that are linked more towards what you want to do. What you’ll find is that at least 50% of people get into their career, not because they’ve applied for a job, it’s just because they are sitting in the right place at the right time.  And that’s the way I would look at it. This is career development, not just a thought process, not an abstract intellectual exercise, it’s an actual process where you’re just finding yourself moving and moving, getting yourself sat every Wednesday go and help out here, every Thursday do this. One of those things is going to start becoming more and more what you do and then they’re going to start giving you a pay check. So that’s the way I would focus on it.

James: So you mentioned work experience there, would you recommend just grabbing the first thing that comes across your path? Or do you need to be more strategic at the outset to try and focus down?

Steve: Again a good question. I would take a step back and say, what am I trying to learn? What am I trying to gain from any experience? And try to write that down. One way of doing that is to look at the sort of career that you really want to aim for. Even if it’s only general, I want to work in Politics, I want to work in Law, or I want to work in marketing, whatever. If you can be more specific, all the better. Look up things like Prospects.ac.uk or look at job adverts and try to list the sort of skills that they’re after. And then be honest with yourself, or ask your mum or your best friend or some guy in a pub, anyone you want. To try and figure out whether you’ve got those skills and what skills you really need to develop and that’s where I would start. Then I would look for roles which try and link with that. At the beginning, if you’ve got nothing then anything is better than nothing. So I’d go out and get anything, yes. But then pretty soon there’s no point in doing the same thing over and over and over again where you’re not developing those skills you’re after. It’s about going back to that list, ticking things off, and then saying the only one I’ve got here is for example, I want to develop my PhotoShop skills. Now I’ve never done anything to do with that. So that’s going to be important for my career, where can I get something?  Oh I know, I’ll volunteer at the international centre at University because they need somebody to write some web pages and I could learn some PhotoShop there. I’ll volunteer there and ask if I can get involved with that. In other words, gradually take more and more control of the experience you’ve got based upon the skills you hope to develop, not just based upon a list of things to put on your CV.

James: That’s really good advice. I know that every work experience placement I did, or job I did. Even if I wasn’t identifying things that I loved, I was identifying things I didn’t want to be doing on a full time, day to day basis. You’re always moving forward, whether it’s from a positive point or view or negative pushing you away.

Steve: That’s a very good point James. Everyone I ever speak to says that. That they learned more from their experience what they don’t want to do. But as you say, there’s probably 99% of jobs I don’t want to do, but that still leaves me with a massive range of jobs. That’s the wonderful thing about having so many choices.

James: A big question on work experience. Especially from a London point of view here is, what do you think, in terms of paid versus unpaid work experience? Where do you sit on that spectrum?

Steve: It’s horrible because I’m quite politically minded, a social conscience sort of thing. I’m strongly, strongly against unpaid experience. However, I also need to be pragmatic when I’m giving advice to people. And I’d say on one hand, try and change the world in the evening, but during the day you’ve got to play with the rules you’ve got. If you don’t like the way football is played, the rules of football but you want to be a professional footballer, you still have to play with the rules you’ve got. That means I think on the whole, nowadays increasingly unpaid. And you mentioned the L word, London. That’s a massively unfair thing for people who come from up north, or from Cornwall, or from anywhere. Because to go down to London is so expensive to live there. So I think you’ve got to find a middle ground. My wife got into teaching but she had a flexible job in London, where she could work evenings and then she slept on her aunt’s couch and then during the day volunteered in a school because she wanted to go into teaching. It’s a case of that, it’s a case of being really resourceful and figuring out how you can find some way of getting your foot in the door for a short period. It’s not going to last forever, believe me this really is true. If you go for an interview then in London, with people in their thousand pound suits and what have you, they’re going to really respect you for doing that. You’re going to be something different, you’re going to stand out. So the advantage of this is that if you’re able to be resourceful and make it work, people are going to want to help you and respect you for what you’re doing.

James: That’s a really good point. Work experience is such a powerful thing to have on your CV. I know when I was on the other side of the fence, reviewing applications for a big graduate scheme. All things being equal I would always go for a candidate who’d had work experience over say, academic experience.  Just because they would’ve learnt, in my eyes, so much more in a year working with a company, than a year doing an additional masters. So it is worthwhile getting that additional work experience and having it on your CV.

Steve: Totally. I mean it’s almost impossible not to get in without it, without some form of experience. Not just experience, but the ability to coherently translate the skills and the commitment that you gained and the knowledge that you’ve gained from that experience. In respect to the job you’re going for. So it’s a case of not just doing of it, but actually being able to communicate what you’ve learnt by it and why it will help that employer that you’re going for, make more money.

James: Tied in specifically with that, I had previous guests on the show. I had Rob Bence back in episode 36. Now Rob is a small business owner who has a couple of property companies. A letting agency and a property development company. I asked him how applicants who, lots of people get in touch with him asking if they can come and do free work experience with him. He said even though the applicant might think that’s attractive, it’s an attractive offer, ‘I will come and work for you for free’. From a business owner’s point of view, he would view it as hassle because these people come, you’ve got to find something for them to do, you’ve got to train them up, it might be for a short period of time. He said that what was a lot more appealing, was if they would get in touch and say, I want to come and work for you, and I’ll come and work for you for free and this is what I want to do and this is how it will benefit you. So talk about what it is, a specific skill, as you mentioned PhotoShop earlier Steve. Whether it’s I will come and do some website optimization for you, I’ll come and improve the pictures of your website. Whatever it is you can do, if you can overcome their initial objections in how you get in touch with them, then it makes it a lot more attractive,

Steve: Absolutely brilliant James. It’s a double-edged sword, it benefits them and it benefits you. But also it shows that you’re not just listing experience. You’re saying why, how I can help you. You’re showing such a maturity, what they call on application forms commercial awareness. That sort of get up and go to be able to know where you fit in is a wonderful, wonderful aspect that someone can offer.

James: So in terms of the hierarchy of placements, internships and work experience; you describe in the book sandwich placements as a gold standard work experience. Why do you think they’re treated and viewed so high.

Steve: Well there’s been quite a lot of statistics over the last few years, to demonstrate that people who do a year’s placement during their degree have got, I can’t remember exactly, but between 5 and 10% chance more of getting a first, than other people. So it’s not just the work experience will get you into a career, it’s you can see the link between career and academia and real life, in that I think it gives you that…A year is a long time especially when you’re what, 20. It’s a twentieth of your life. So you’re there for a long time so you will develop the whole range of skills that that company needs. By the end of it you’ll be a part of that organisation. It will be more of a culture clash in coming back to University than carrying on. So for many people going back to Uni for another year is quite a hard thing to do, but they do very well because they’ve got much more mature attitudes. That’s a pejorative term isn’t it, but a much more focused attitude. Then almost all of them will get a good graduate role in that company when they get back. So if you can stick out a year and you’re enjoying it and you know what you’re doing and you know where you want to go in that organisation, Jesus it’s like a jackpot hence why I gave it that term.

James: Another stat from the book is you said that in a recent survey, half of graduate roles at blue chip companies are now reserved for interns.

Steve: That was a conservative estimate I would say.

James: Wow. Again it shows just how highly the companies themselves…

Steve: Yeah, of course. They’ve got, even if they’re on a summer placement, that’s what I was alluding to there. A summer placement; again I’m confusing the words. A summer internship. What you get when someone who is ill every Monday morning after a few months, you get to know what they’re really like. Conversely if someone turns up early every Monday for the whole thing you know what they’re like and these things are really important. The people that, when the going gets tough, they’re there at 7 o’Clock in the evening still doing the work when they’ve got a day that they’ve had to cancel and what have you. You really, as an employer get to know the wheat form the chaff very quickly, which you can’t necessarily get with people who know how to charm them in interviews or people that can come in for a few days and look good. You get to know the real worker. We all know them, the people that are able to do the work can’t necessarily sell themselves brilliantly. But get all the work done and are totally reliable. Those sorts of people start to shine out more, the longer you see them and they’re the sort of people you really want.

James: And I recently spoke to a couple of graduate employers, so Enterprise Rent-a-Car and the law firm Allen & Overy. They both have processes, if you go through the summer internship process, or the internship process and you pass at the end of it, you can go straight to the graduate job. You won’t have to bother applying, they’ll offer you the job.

Steve: That’s brilliant.  I think most of them should do that and I’m surprised that with a lot of them they do. I think they just don’t like to declare it. But my experience is that a lot of those people that do go through the process of an internship do get taken on.  However I think it’s worth pointing out, that that’s just one route into one area. If a student is reading this or hearing this; if they’re reading this that might be tricky, but if they’re hearing it, it’s not the end of the world if you haven’t organised one of these internships, these big programs. There are a hundred different ways to get in. When you’re 30 if you’re 20 now. If you’re 30 now when your 40 or whatever. In ten years time it’s not really going to make that much difference in terms of how you got in as long as you, and there are loads of ways to get in.  Don’t panic it’s not the end of the world if you don’t get on to that internship at the right point.

James: No it’s a really good to point to make. You mentioned reading it, we do of course have the full transcript of this, show notes, which will be available at graduatejobpodcast.com.

Steve: I’m 50 years old as I mentioned. Obviously a big thing for me, I didn’t mean to mention that twice, but for me reading things is much easier. I have to print them out off the computer because I’m not used to reading the screen. So I guess I’m not quite up with all the modern technology.

James: You will be able to read it yourself Steve at graduatejobpodcast.com/workexperience.  Nicely segwaying on, you mentioned it’s never too late to get work experience even if you use your university summers for more enjoyable things.

Steve: What could be more enjoyable?

James: It’s never too late to get experience and I love the chapter in the book Steve, where you talk about some of the pro’s and cons of going overseas to get work experience. What are your thoughts on moving overseas to get work experience?

Steve: I think for too long people view going overseas as either travelling or emigrating, these were the options you got in the 60’s and before. And of course, I think it’s still viewed that way and it’s not. Lets say I went to Newcastle; the only difference if I go to Newcastle in England or Newcastle in Australia, is the thousands of miles which nowadays is a day’s travel and a thousand pounds. Which is a fair amount of money but that’s the only real difference. There are so many visas and ways you can work abroad, that if you go abroad, you’ve got that much more sexy experience just by the fact that you’re saying you’ve done it in Newcastle in Australia and not than Newcastle in England. You’ve got the opportunity to really maybe learn a different language, to get involved with the different culture of people. To really stand on your own feet, that’s the greatest thing. To be able to be a bit away from home but not so far that you haven’t got some support. Have you ever noticed when you put yourself in a completely new position, suddenly all your senses are increased. You’re suddenly much more aware, much more able and when you go abroad you will be in a much better position to really take advantage of different situations and learn heaps from them. So that if you look at that list I told you about, you’re skills, you’re going to come back with loads and loads of different examples and they’re going to be very rich examples. Not just for yourself and your own fulfilment and life, but also for employers.

James: That’s a brilliant point and after University I spent a year teaching English in China. When I came back and was applying for graduate jobs, I just told them about the time I spent in China. You could see they were immediately just more interested in me. “Ooh China, ooh how was that? That must’ve been interesting”. Everyone’s got their own preconceived notions about what different countries are like. Whether it’s exotic or different. It’s easier to talk about things and you make yourself more interesting straight away.

Steve: I think so and somewhere like China, business-wise it’s an exciting thing for me as an employer. Because I know you’re going to be able to get on with a wider range of people and be able to understand the flexible modern society because you jumped in and got involved with it. Although I should say, years and years ago I went to a conference for the Institute of Advertisers, there’s an extra letter in there I’ve forgotten what it is. The Institute for Practitioning Advertisers. One of the chaps, one of the employers stood up and he said look if one more student fills in his form that he’s climbed Mount bloody Kilimanjaro with his underpants on his head, I’m going to bloody puke. So, you can see that sort of middle class sort of thing where people, even at school nowadays, go travelling in all these exotic places, it’s not just a case of doing it, ticking it off. You’ve got to, like you said with your China experience, when you talked to them James, it’s about being able to communicate what you gained from that and how that will help the employer. It always comes back to that. It’s not just doing it, it’s being able to communicate what you gained from it that’s relevant.

James: Linking back to the point I made earlier with applying, Rob Bence’s quote about making sure that if you’re applying for work experience, what’s in it for them? What are you going to do for them? What are the skills you’re going to do for them? As opposed to just talking about, transactionally what you’ve done and what you’ve learnt. How can you make it worthwhile for them?

Steve: I think you feel cloistered, when you’re going for a job you feel they really care about your experience in China. So one would automatically just say how wonderful it was, how nice it was. But they’re not interested in that, they’re probably jealous. They’re interested in what are you going to give them because of that?

James: Yeah. There are costs associated with going abroad. But if you think about it, if you’re weighing up the options of an unpaid internship in London or unpaid work experience in London, or work experience abroad, the costs will probably balance themselves out.

Steve: You’d be going to places that are a lot cheaper to live. I mean frankly if I was going to do a degree nowadays, I wouldn’t do it in England. Because they’re a hell of a lot cheaper in Europe. I don’t get why someone would do a degree in England when they can do a free one in Germany, in English. I would also look for courses abroad which have some sort of placement attached. Win-win-win-win.

James: I love your quote in the book about standing still just isn’t an option.  Why is this the case with people looking for work?

Steve: We probably all know people, I’m just picturing friends and relations who have got into a certain part of their life and that’s where they’ve stayed. Whether it’s to do with work or experience of life general. I think it’s wrong to think of work experience leading to a job, leading to your career, that’s it. It’s not. Especially more and more nowadays with the world changing and you having to take control of your career. It’s about always learning. Work experience is a life long process, we’re all getting more experience. We’ve all got to look at that list of things we want to develop and move on to a new area. If you just don’t bother with that, you might say I’m happy where I am, what the hell. The point is you’re happy where you are. If you think of a horse race where they’re going round and round and round, you’re staying where you are. You’re not going backwards, no, fair enough. But the whole world is going forwards so in effect you are going backwards. What will happen then is people are going to start knocking on your door for where you are, for your job and they’re going to get your job and you’re going to get demoted because you haven’t kept up to date with things and you’re going to start literally moving backwards. So the only way really to find self-fulfilling I think, in the human nature, the human character, is to always be striving for something beyond the hill. There’s the hill I’ve got to get up that hill. As soon as you reach the top of the hill you’ve got to realise damn, there’s another hill. You maybe frustrated about that but actually that’s just the human psyche. So both psychologically and professionally I think the only way to find a fulfilling and successful career, is to not view it as somewhere you’re able to get to, but somewhere you will aim for.

James: Again, going to the book if you’re aiming for the hill, you talk about don’t forget to dream when you’re looking for work experience and internships. If you are going to dream you’re going to look for, trying to scale the next hill, make sure it’s a big hill that’s attractive and exciting and one that gets you up in the morning.

Steve: Yeah exactly. If you get half way up, well you got a bloody lot further than if you hadn’t tried at all. So it’s a win-win.

James: Imagine then, that we’ve inspired people, they’ve got out, they’ve got that work experience. How can they hit the ground running and make sure that they’re making an impact and it’s going to help them?

Steve: I think again if I go back to being nice to yourself. You’re going to have days when you get up and you just want to stay in bed all day. That’s human nature too so if you can stay in bed all day. If you’re having a wonderful day where everything seems to be going all right, enjoy it, take some time off and enjoy and smile. Take the rough with the smooth in other words. Don’t try to feel pressured that it’s all going to go right. When I talk about networking, probably 90% of your networks aren’t going to get anywhere. But you only need one to get you somewhere. So the odds are always on your favour if you stick with it. What I’m trying to get at is you’ve got to stick with it, but you’ve got to be nice to yourself along the way and sooner or later something will break. If you try different things, not just try keep banging your head against the wall in the same way. If you try to be creative and look for new ways of doing things, you will get into something, something will start clicking. So keep your eyes open while you’re doing things because, one of those things, you’ll be going “God I wish I had a job. I wish that one of those people, I’ve sent out ten applications no one’s given me a job, none of them have given me a job”. And you’re sitting there saying this to someone whose just helped you volunteer in their shop for the last year and needs a manager, and you haven’t even realised that because you’re just going on and on about your application. So persevere, work hard and keep your eyes open.

James: Steve, that’s a lovely point for us to maybe draw to a close on because time has been racing away from us. Before we do, just another mention check out the show notes at graudatejobpodcast.com/workexperience it’s got links to everything we’ve discussed today, it’s got links to Steve’s excellent book which has so many resources and so many things in it that we didn’t get a chance to touch upon and mention today. So definitely check out the show notes. Before we finish though Steve, our weekly staple question; I’ve got my answers from the first time you were on the show so making sure that you’re not going to be able to repeat them. So kicking off at the beginning: What one book do you recommend to the listeners that they should check out?

Steve: Right, one book, you’ve really put me on the spot. It’s very hard not to recommend my own book, because I think it’s the best book in the world. The book, The Moon’s a Balloon, by David Niven.

James: Ah that’s a new one, what’s that one about?

Steve: David Niven was an actor, died about 20 years ago. Very famous in the height of British film in the 50’s, 40’s. Very debonair but he was brought up in a very poor, almost starving to death family and he made his way in the world, most incredible ways. He went and faked his way into the Canadian air force and did all sorts of things before he became an actor. It’s a real example of someone that really takes that message that a career is life and it’s up to you to get up there and make it.

James: Sounds inspiring, I will have to track down a copy myself for that one. So thanks for that Steve. Next, what one website do you recommend that our listeners should visit?

Steve: Ooh, website, gosh. The BBC. Nice simple one for you. I think that if you’re not addicted to the news since June, there’s something wrong with you. You should know everything about Brexit. You should know everything about the American election. You should know everything about the way the world’s going at the moment, because to be in the modern world you need to be engaged with these things. Not just on a motherly way, telling people you need to be. To enjoy life you need to realise, these things are engaging and these things are what my next 40,60 years are going to be about. So just read these things and see what a wonderful we’re living in at the moment.

James: Lovely and finally Steve, what one tip can our listeners implement today to help them on their job search?

Steve: You said it before James. Dream. Don’t forget to dream. It’s everything. If you’re finding it hard to plan your next steps, you’re just not dreaming, you’re just thinking “Oh I’ve got to do this, this is what a career is”.  You’re not seeing it right. What do you dream of in life? What do you really want out of life? Not a particular job, but what do I want? Where do I see myself when I’m retiring? Is it a big house in Acapulco? Is it a flat in London? How do I see myself, how can I get there?

James: Steve that’s such a perfect way to draw the episode to a close. Before we do, what is the best way for people to get in touch with and your work and your books?

Steve: Oh right, easy. I have managed to catch up with websites and internet so far and emails even. Email is probably the best and it’s steventhomasrook@yahoo.co.uk.

James: And I’ll link to that in the show notes. Steve next time we have you on the show, hopefully you’ll have your own website.

Steve: Well yeah or you can just review my film when it’s out.

James: Well we want to see the graduatejobpodcast on the red carpet.

Steve: No worries.

James: Steve it’s been a pleasure having you on this show, thank you so much.

Steve: All right James, thanks a lot, good luck.

James: Thankyou again to Steve, it was great to have him back on the show. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it has inspired you to think about trying to get an internship or work experience. As Steve said, it’s never too late, don’t feel that just because you didn’t do one in your first year at university that it has passed you by. As he said, dream……aim for some work experience somewhere cool that you would like to work. Look into doing it abroad, go somewhere exciting, why not. The only thing holding you back is your imagination. Tailor a personalised application that makes you stand out and focus on what you can do for them. Listen to episode 36 with Rob Bence who has great advice on how to tailor an application for work experience so it stands out and appeals to a recruiter and business owner. Don’t forget to keep me posted with how you get on with your applications.

Don’t forget that there is a full word for word transcript of the whole interview up on the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/workexperience so get yourself over there and have a look. If you’ve enjoyed the show or any of the previous 54 episodes, the way you can show your thanks is to go to graduatejobpodcast.com/survey and answer 3 questions letting me know what you like about the show and episodes you would like to see. So head over there and check it out. All that is left is to say thank you for listening, I know you have an unlimited choice of where to spend your time, and I really appreciate you choosing to spend it with me.  I hope you enjoyed the show today, but more importantly, I hope you use it, and apply it. See you next week.