Episode 75 – How to get a Solicitors Training Contract, with Sarah Cave

August 13, 2018 Podcast

Hello and welcome to the 75th episode of the Graduate Job Podcast. The heatwave is continuing here in London and the summer is proving a cracker! This warm weather does make it difficult to knuckle down and do some work, so I hope your job preparation hasn’t been too badly impacted. Don’t worry if it has been, tomorrow is another day, and you can crack on from there. So enough of the waffle, lets’ crack straight into today’s episode, which is a certifiable cracker. Today I’m joined by qualified solicitor and the author of the excellent new book, “The Complete Guide to Getting a Solicitor’s Training Contract”, the multi-talented Sarah Cave. Now, if you’re not interested in a career in law don’t turn this off, as the episode is packed to the rafters full of amazing tips, hints and all round great advice that will apply no matter what sector or jobs you’re applying for. Getting a training contract as we discuss in the show is super competitive with tens of thousands of candidates vying for thousands of spaces and Sarah takes us through everything you need to know to bag yourself that training contract. We cover Sarah’s insider secrets on exactly what you need to put on your application to get past the initial stage. We look at the do’s and don’ts of applying for a training contract, and what you need to watch out for to make sure your application doesn’t end up in the bin, and as part of this why you need to apply sooner rather than later when trying to get a training contract. We cover some of the classic interview questions you will face and exactly how you need to answer them, and Sarah shares great insights into exactly how you can demonstrate commercial awareness in your application. We cover all stages of the application process, from the video interview through to the assessment centre and how to impress, and what to expect from the dreaded partner interview when you apply for a training contract. Phew, it’s a packed episode and whether you are interested in a law firm or not, this is an episode which you aren’t going to want to miss.

As always all links, and a full transcript can be found in the shownotes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/trainingcontract.  From there you will also find links to all of the other 74 episodes which cover every aspect of getting a graduate job, from help with interviews, assessment centres, to specific companies, to finding a job you love. Check them out and you won’t go far wrong.

Don’t forget, also make sure you check out http://www.graduatejobpodcast.com/subscribe which links to how to subscribe on Itunes, Spotify, Youtube, and by email. So something for everyone there.

And don’t forget to check out today’s sponsor who are our friends over at CareerGym.com. Career Gym is the number one place for you to undertake all of your psychometric tests which you will face when you apply for a graduate job. No matter what graduate job you apply for you’re going to have to face some type of verbal reasoning, situational judgment, and working style tests. You can practice these at CareerGym.com. Use code GJP to get 20% off all of their tests!

MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT:

  • Just how competitive it is to get a training contract and why you need to put effort into your application
  • Why the research phase is so important as you apply for a training contract
  • The insider secrets of what you need to do to get a training contract
  • The language to use to ensure success on your application
  • What to expect throughout the application process for a training contract
  • How to stand out in the assessment centre for a graduate job with a law firm
  • How to impress in the dreaded partner interview

SELECTED LINKS INCLUDE:

IF YOU FOUND THIS USEFUL, CHECK OUT THESE EPISODES:

Episode 75: How to get a Solicitors Training Contract, with Sarah Cave

Announcer: Welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, your home for weekly information and inspiration to help you get the graduate job of your dreams.

James: Hello and welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, with your host James Curran. The Graduate Job Podcast is your home for all things related to helping you on your journey to finding that amazing job. Each episode I bring together the best minds in the industry, speaking to leading authors, entrepreneurs, coaches and bloggers who bring decades of experience into a byte size weekly 30 minute-ish show. Put simply, this is the show I wish I had a decade ago when I graduated.

Hello and welcome to the 75th episode of the Graduate Job Podcast. The heatwave is continuing here in London and the summer is proving a cracker! This warm weather does make it difficult to knuckle down and do some work, so I hope your job preparation hasn’t been too badly impacted. Don’t worry if it has been, tomorrow is another day, and you can crack on from there. So enough of the waffle, lets’ jump straight into today’s episode, which is certifiable cracker. Today I’m joined by qualified solicitor and the author of the excellent new book, “The Complete Guide to Getting a Solicitor’s Training Contract”, the multi-talented Sarah Cave. Now, if you’re not interested in a career in law don’t turn this off, as the episode is packed to the rafters full of amazing tips, hints and all round great advice that will apply no matter what sector or jobs you’re applying for. Getting a training contract, as we discuss in the show is super competitive, with many tens of thousands of candidates vying for just a few thousand spaces, and Sarah takes us through everything you need to know to bag yourself that training contract. We cover Sarah’s insider secrets on exactly what you need to put on your application to get past the initial stage. We look at the do’s and don’ts of applying for a training contract, and what you need to watch out for to make sure your application doesn’t end up in the bin, and as part of this why you need to apply sooner rather than later when trying to get a training contract. We cover some of the classic interview questions you will face and exactly how you need to answer them, and Sarah shares great insights into exactly how you can demonstrate commercial awareness in your application. We cover all stages of the application process, from the video interview through to the assessment centre and how to impress, and what to expect from the dreaded partner interview when you apply for a training contract. Phew, it’s a packed episode and whether you are interested in a law firm or not, this is an episode which you aren’t going to want to miss. Make sure you check out the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/trainingcontract for a full transcript and links to everything which we discuss today.

Now before we start let’s have a little message from today’s sponsor who are who are our friends over at CareerGym.com. Now if I said to you, are you ready to do verbal and numerical reasoning tests for the job of your dreams tomorrow? I bet most of you would say no, well graduate employers don’t hang about, some of them give you as little as 2-3 days notice before you have to do the tests! So you need to make sure you are ready and willing to do the tests and start practicing now, which is where Career Gym comes in. Career Gym is the number one place for you to undertake all of your psychometric tests which you will face when you apply for a graduate job. No matter what graduate job you apply for you’re going to have to face some type of verbal and numerical reasoning, situational judgement, and working style tests. You can practice these at CareerGym.com, as well as numerical, and abstract reasoning tests. They are all produced by testing experts, and exactly the same as the ones you will see in the real graduate job tests. You can just practice them as you want, or you can do them in exam mode, under time pressure, and they come all with detailed explanations and solutions, and you can track your progress and see how you compare against your peers.

If you’re applying for a graduate job will have to do them, so pull your finger out now and start revising straight away to make sure you don’t fall at this first hurdle. I’ve been recommending this site for years to the clients I coach and it comes very highly recommended. What’s even better is if you use the code GJP, you will get 20% off of all of their tests. You can’t say fairer than that. So, head over to www.CareerGym.com that’s CareerGym.com and use the code GJP to get 20% off and start practicing today.  Now, on with the show.

James Curran: I’m pleased to have on the show a very special guest today. She’s a qualified solicitor, specializing in commercial property, and the author of the excellent new book, “The Complete Guide to Getting a Solicitor’s Training Contract“. Welcome, Sarah Cave, to the Graduate Job Podcast.

Sarah Cave: Well, thank you very much for the introduction, James, and thanks so much for inviting me to speak to you today. That’s a real pleasure.

James: No, the pleasure’s all mine. Thank you for coming on the show, and today, as I mentioned, we’re going to delve into your brilliant new book, which I have in my hands here: The Complete Guide to Getting a Solicitor’s Training Contract, and we’re going to delve into all aspects of what you need to do to get that, what can be elusive, training contract. So, maybe before we start, Sarah, would you like to just give the listeners a little brief background about what is it you do and how you came to write the book?

Sarah: Yes, well as you say, I am a solicitor working in commercial property specializing in social housing and development work. I came to write this book because for the simple reason that I found it much more difficult than I thought I was going to to get a training contract, and after applying for a few years for a training contract, you suddenly find that you’ve built up this absolutely huge bank of knowledge as to what firms are looking for and, critically, what they’re not looking for, and it just seemed to me to be a bit of a waste not to share the information out.

So, the goal, really, with the book, is to shorten the time taken to get people a training contract. So, if you read the book before you start applying, it would definitely save you a lot of wasted time because you’re going to have information as to what firms are looking for, and how to avoid the really common pitfalls that a lot of people, including myself, fell into.

James: Brilliant, and lots of the shared reasons as to why I started the podcast itself was to, I picked up a lot of knowledge along the way and found that, when I was doing the interviewing, people just were amazingly unprepared and weren’t up to the standard that was expected, so I wanted to be able to create a resource just to share the knowledge. It’s good that we’re on the same page there.

Sarah: Really good idea.

James: So, you kicking off then, you mentioned that you found it more difficult than you thought to get a training contract. Just how competitive is it, at the moment, to get a training contract. What sort of numbers are we looking at?

Sarah: Well, in a way, it’s a very, very competitive to secure a training contract. Securing a training contract isn’t easy simply because demand far outstrips supply. So, I just say let’s take a look at the numbers, and you add up all the people who are eligible to file for training contracts in any given year, you’ve got about 34,000 law students, you’ve got people at university not studying law that want to convert, you’ve got about 3,700 people already studying the GDL, which is the conversion course to law, you’ve got around 7,000 LPC students, you’ve got foreign students, you’ve got people looking to exchange career and enter the legal profession.

So, if you toss all of that up, you’re going to arrive at about 45,000 people, and that’s the number of people who, yeah, exactly, in one year alone, make up the pool of candidates who are eligible to apply for training contracts. So, you’ve got to think about, added to that, you’ve got many, many candidates from previous years who didn’t secure a training contract, because it’s so competitive, who will roll over, if you like, and remain in the pool, and they might stay there for three, four, five years while they try, each year, to get a training contract.

So, you’ve got this really — I mean, it’s incalculable, really, but vast figure, and pit that against the really small number of training contracts that are registered each year. It’s about 5,400, and you can see how competitive it is, and especially for the London firms because they attract the most applicants. So, a lot of that 5,400 figure is going to be training contracts that are small firms pitted all over the country. But, if you’re applying for a London firm, your competition is still more fierce.

James: Yeah, and if you’re going for one of the Magic Circle firms, then the numbers start getting large very quickly.

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely it does. No, for sure.

James: So, if we think, then — I know it’s a difficult challenge you’re setting yourself. What are the requirements that you’d be looking for from a grade perspective? I mean, if you’ve got a 2:1 or below — I mean, if you’ve got a 2:2, is it even worth applying or do you need — do firms often stipulate a minimum of a 2:1 or above?

Sarah: Well, I think that that question, really, if you break it down, there’s sort of two things going on. So, you need to think in terms of grade requirements what the SRA requires, so that’s the Solicitors Regulation Authority, which is our regulating body, and secondly, what did the firms I’m applying to require, and those things will be different. So, the Solicitors Regulation Authority is planning a huge overhaul of the system from 2020, and even now, they’re still refining the proposals as to what the new qualifying regime is going to look like. But, broadly speaking, they’re going to require you, from 2020, to have a degree in any subject. It doesn’t have to be law. And there’s that all-equivalent qualification, so we should get more details on that as the proposal’s affirmed at the time. So, that’s the SRA aspect of it.

Secondly, then, you need to be thinking about what grades the firms will require you to have, and the general consensus is that law firms aren’t going to suddenly radically change their grade requirements from what they are now when the overhaul comes into play in about 2020\. And obviously, different firms will have different academic requirements. Like, if you’re applying to a high street firm, you may be able to get away with, say, three B’s at A level, but if you’re applying to, you mentioned the Magic Circle firms, if you were applying to one of them, three B’s and a 2:2 isn’t going to cut it. I mean, usually, you’re going to be looking at, at least, a 2:1 at university, and A, A, B, or higher at A level, and they will definitely look at your A level results, and they will definitely look at your GCSE results. And on top of that, they will look at every single exam result that you’ve taken at university, and that includes first year grades that won’t count, or generally don’t count toward your final mark. So, just beware of that in case you were thinking about going out before any first year exams.

James: Wow, that does paint a picture, and it puts those first year exams that you think might not really be relevant into context further down the line.

Sarah: Yeah.

James: So, we talked about some of the different firms from high street firms to Magic Circle firms. How would you recommend that people, then, begin to narrow down the type of firm that they want to apply to?

Sarah: Yeah, I do say there’s so many different categories of law firms. I mean, you’ve got the U.S. firms based in London, you’ve already mentioned Magic Circle firms, Silver Circle firms, medium-sized commercial firms, national, regional, niche, high street, in-house, offshore. I mean, you can even apply to the government legal service for a training contract. So, the spectrum really is vast, but what type of firms that you apply to is going to be down to five things.

So, firstly, your academic history. So, as we’ve touched on briefly already, if you’ve got three B’s, it’s probably a waste of time applying to Allen & Overy or Clifford Chance. Same applies if you have a 2:2\. Secondly, the type of law you want to practice. So, say you are dead set on practicing human rights. Don’t, then, apply to Freshfields. Look at the more niche human rights firms: Leigh Day, or Bindmans, or someone like that.

Thirdly, you need to consider where, in the country, you want to live. Fourthly, how much do you want to earn. So, U.S. firms pay the most, so if that’s your main concern, definitely bear them in mind when you’re choosing which firms to apply to. And lastly, definitely think about how important work-life balance is to you. So, if you just take that U.S. firm example and carry that forward a bit, yes they pay the most, but they take their pound of flesh in terms of hours and you’ll be working very, very long hours, much more than you would, say, if you were working for a high street firm or a regional firm.

So, you just need to sit down and think about what you want out of this and not just what the law firms can give to you.

James: I’ve got a friend that works at one of the Magic Circle firms, and he’s been there a few years now, and the stories about the hours he’s working, it’s just – especially if they’ve got a deal on or something. It’s just sort of mind-boggling getting the Magic Taxi where it takes you home, you have a shower, it waits for you, you put some new clothes on, then you just go straight back to work at 6 in the morning or whatever it is.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s crazy, isn’t it? And some of them have beds in the office so you don’t need to leave. Some of them have cots in the office that your family can come and stay so that you can’t leave. So, you’ve just got to be really aware of what you want out of it and don’t just get sort of dazzled by the salaries and benefits they’ll have on their websites. Really think about it at the beginning.

James: I think I might be putting people off here, Sarah, with all the talk of how difficult it is and the long hours, but listeners, don’t worry. It can be difficult to get a job, but it’s even more difficult if you never apply. So, you’ve got to be in it to win it. So, don’t let us put you off here.

Sarah: And also, sorry James, with those big Magic Circle firms, you’re working with clients that are in a league of their own, and you’re working on corporate international deals that will probably be in the Financial Times, so think about it from that perspective that if that’s what you want out of it, something that’s really rigorous in terms of academics and everything else, you absolutely should be applying to the Magic Circle, the Silver Circle, and the U.S. firms.

James: That’s a really good point. I liked, in your book, you have a really interesting chapter dedicated to the research aspect of applying for training contracts. So, could you touch upon why you think the research phase is so important and how people can begin to be successful at it?

Sarah: Yeah, of course. I really can’t stress enough how important researching the firms thoroughly is in this process. It’s absolutely crucial. If I was new to this process of applying to training contracts, I would start by doing general research. I would scope out the legal markets, I would look out for what advantages, and possibly disadvantages applied to different categories of law firms that we’ve briefly touched on. I would say what sorts of firms I like the look of, I do want to say have a think about the beginning about the number of applications that I wanted to submit, and I would say that it’s much, much better to do less high quality applications than more general ones.

James: Completely agree. The scatter gun approach tends to never work well.

Sarah: It doesn’t; it just doesn’t. They can spot you a mile away. So, definitely, definitely do more high-quality applications rather than it’s five high-quality applications than 30 general ones. So, write down your short list of firms that you want to apply to when you start your — and then you can start your firm-specific research. So, you’ve got your general research that’s phase 1, say, and your firm-specific research as your phase 2\. Because, without this really in-depth firm-specific research, your application form is going to be far too general and it’s just going to go straight into the bin.

So, by the time you’ve finished your firm-specific research, you need to understand how the firm fits into the legal market as a whole. You need to understand and identify their objectives, their buzzwords, their principles, identify their main clients, their main practice areas, things like the firm’s geographical research. Even look at the high-profile recent cases or transactions and see if you can find any statements or biographies from graduate recruitment partners. All of this will help you to build up a picture of the firm.

And in order to find out that information, you’re going to have to be looking at legal directories. So, data websites like LawCareers.net, the Lex 100, the Legal 500, Chambers UK Guides. But, don’t stop there. Go to social media publications, go to the firm’s website, go to the legal press, like Legal Week or Lawyer 2B. And the other thing I would really recommend about your firm-specific research is try and meet somebody from the firms.

So, having a face-to-face meeting is just, by far, the best way for you to get a real sense of the culture of the firm. So, go to LawFirst, go to opendays, or your university might be putting on a presentation from, say, Norton Rose or whoever. The trick, when you are going to these face-to-face events is to be remembered. So, don’t turn up, just take some notes, and go home. Turn up with some really insightful questions, and make sure you give them your name, take their name so that you actually get something meaningful from it, and hopefully, they’ll remember you when you come to put in your application.

James: Yeah, and having gone through the process over the years, and no doubt, applied to lots of different firms, do you find that there actually is a big difference in terms of ethos and values between the different firms that you’ve applied to?

Sarah: Yeah, there definitely is. So, some of them will have on their — for example, you walk around the law firm, some of them will give you a packet of chili seeds, and it will say, “Can you handle the heat?” and you think, “Oh god, I’m not sure that firm will be for me, clearly.” You know, they’re trying to give off the impression that they’re looking for, perhaps, aggressive negotiators or something like that, whereas, perhaps, if you’re more inclined —

James: Do they really do that?

Sarah: Yeah, they do. Absolutely, they do. So, look on their website and see what sort of buzzwords they use, because if they are trying to acquire young talent that is particularly aggressive because they want that fierce negotiator tactics in their firm, then you’ve got to think, “Is this firm right for me?” and others will say things like, on their website, “Our staff is at the heart of all of our values, and what we believe in, and we want to make sure that you’re comfortable, and da-da-da.” So, if that’s more your type of personality, then gravitate towards a firm that’s more like that. But, you’ll only know that through doing your firm-specific research.

James: And as you mentioned, when you do do a scatter gun approach, it’s so easy to spot where questions have just been cut and pasted and people haven’t put their time in to do the research phase. And if you do put it in, it’s so valuable because when you get to that one-to-one interview stage and they’re asking you, “Why do you want to work here?” you need to be able to talk in depth, as you mentioned, about the firm and the type of deals they’re doing, because otherwise, you’ll just get spotted straight away.

Sarah: Exactly. You will, you absolutely will. Some people put applications in and they’ve tried to cut and paste it up, and they’ve left the name of a previous firm.

James: Yeah, I’ve seen that. It’s so embarrassing.

Sarah: In the application, so you think, “Well, obviously, that’s going straight to the bin,” and it’s just a waste of your time, so just don’t do the bulk application.

James: That’s brilliant advice. And moving on, how would you advise, then, about people narrowing down the particular practice they wanted to go into at a firm? I mean, often difficult when you’ve not, maybe, might have studied it at uni, but if you’ve not had the experience of seeing what it’s like in real life, how would you recommend that?

Sarah: Yeah, I agree, it is difficult if you are at university and not studying law. But, just start thinking about what you’re interested in. So, think about what area of law would motivate you the most to be the best in your chosen field. So, start with that as the basis, and then next, think about, “What am I good at?” It’s human nature to like things you’re good at, right? So, try to match your skill sets to a particular practice area. Some people are just born litigators, and love the contentious side of law. Contentious is just adversarial work involving a defeat. But, other people prefer non-contentious work, like for example, what I do with commercial property while you’re dealing with the transactions.

But, as you say it, this is the process. You’re not going to need to make any hard and fast decisions regarding what practice area you want to qualify into because once you start your training contracts, you’ll have the opportunity to try different practice areas because you rotate through different seats. Training contracts are usually four seats of six months each, but it might be six seats of four months each, etcetera, etcetera.

James: So, I was just going to say would you recommend the initial application stage of having a firm idea in your mind of what you want to do or do companies prefer you to say, “I want to get into — I know commercial properties. Is the one for me?” for example, or do they mind if you go in at this stage saying, “You know, I’m open to offers.”

Sarah: I think that if you’re applying to a corporate and commercial firm, you should be able to say, on your application, why interests you in that type of law? The same if you go to any niche firms. If you go to a firm that specializes in pensions, you can’t not mention that on your application form. If you’re really into human rights, Leigh Day, you’ve got to be able to say on your application form why it is you’re interested in human rights.

So, whilst you don’t have to say, “I know that I want to specialize into social housing development commercial property,” because you won’t know if you’re at uni, especially if you’re not studying law. It would be useful for you to have an idea of what interests you because, otherwise, you’re not going to be able to pick your firms, especially if they’re niche.

James: That’s really good advice. That’s a good point. So, maybe if we move on to the beginning of the application process and some of the things that they are going to be looking out for, and one key one, one perennial aspect that always comes up in the interviews is commercial awareness, which is a big focus area for firms. How can you recommend that people begin to get that commercial awareness, and then how can they go about demonstrating it in interviews and assessment centers.

Sarah: Well, you know what, a common misconception is that being commercially aware means reading the Financial Times on the day of your interview, and I can tell you from personal experience, that is absolutely not the case. Being commercially aware means staying up to date with the latest developments in the commercial world. But, not just that. You also have to be able to view situations from the commercial perspective. You also have to know the business of your clients, and you also have to know your clients as individuals.

So, following on from that, as you can see, you can’t become commercially aware overnight, or indeed, on the morning on the tube to your interview. You’ve got to learn a little bit every day, and the good news is that it doesn’t all have to be about reading. I mean, if you read the Financial Times every day, that will help you. But, you can go on courses. My university put on a commercial awareness course for us, which is really useful. Your LPC provider or GDL provider might do the same. Make use of the online videos, make use of the online tutorials. Radio is a good one as well. And importantly, you really should be going on work experience because that’s a really good way to get commercial awareness, immersing yourself in it, practically.

James: Oh, really good points. And then in terms of demonstrating it in interviews, you can’t just say, “I read the news and I listen to Radio 4 a lot.” How would you then try and demonstrate it practically?

Sarah: You’re right, yeah. Well, I think that you need to be able to demonstrate it not just in the interviews and assessment centers, but also at the application form stage. It’s at every single stage of the application process. So, say you were in a group exercise and you’ve been given a scenario, as a group, and you’ve been asked to come up with a proposed course of action for whatever. If you can voice the commercial consequences of your group’s proposed course of action, you’ll really set yourself apart from every candidate. So, looking at things from a legal perspective is what they want you to do, but it won’t impress your interviewer half as much, as if you can also have a comment, just a little comment, about the commercial aspect as well.

So, if I give you an example, say your scenario is your client is looking to acquire a development site, and say your client wants to turn it into a supermarket. They might give you some legal documentation to look through, and you have to propose a way forward. You could voice a question something like, “Do you know if there are any competitors in these markets nearby? Does it show anything on the plan.” You know, something small like that, but just something to show that you’ve got commercial awareness at the forefront of your mind, and it’s actually a really easy point to put in, and it’s something that lots of other people won’t be doing and won’t be thinking about. So, it will give you that edge.

Also, that’s how you can demonstrate it in group exercises, but in the interview, you’re probably going to be asked commercial awareness type questions. One of the quite common ones is, “What are a law firm’s main expenses?” and you know what, I’ve asked this question to students before, and I found that, on the whole, it’s answered really, really poorly. I mean, the firm wants you to demonstrate that you’re commercially aware because they want you to be able to provide relevant advice to clients, but they also want you to be commercially aware because the firm, itself, is a business, and this question, “What’s our law firm’s main expenses,” tests your commercial acumen in relation to the firm.

So, if you do get that question, which I would say most people perform really badly on, and it’s so easy to get right because you can just prepare in advance. If you can’t remember anything else on the day, remember PPP: people, property, professional indemnity insurance. I’ve set out a full answer to the question in the book, which includes all the other expenses law firms have and expands to discuss how firms can reduce their costs to maximize profits. And you know what, it’s these little extras that are so easy to prepare that will get you noticed, and will just mean that you’re streets ahead of the person that’s going into the interview after you.

James: Ah, brilliant. I was going to say any people who haven’t read your book are going to be unprepared, Sarah. It was one of my favorite chapters in the book and one we’ll come to shortly. Maybe moving on to something which we mentioned is key already, which is work experience. What advice would you give listeners about trying to get that crucial work experience?

Sarah: People starting out do often say, I’ve heard this time and again, but it’s really hard getting work experience because they’ve got nothing on their CVs. So, it’s a catch-22, right? Yes, it is hard, but you have to start somewhere. So, there’s no point in applying to Freshfields if you haven’t got any previous work experience on your CV. So, start by asking family and friends if you can spend a few days with them. It doesn’t have to be in law, even. You just need something to start you off and you can work up from there. And probably people listening to this and thinking, “Well, I don’t approve of nepotism,” but I don’t either. It’s just that if you’ve got nothing, and this is really going to hold you back, maybe just go with it for the purpose of a couple days’ work experience, and then once you’ve got something on your CV, then you can really do it yourself.

If you think realistically, the smaller the firm, the more likely you have getting that work experience. The bigger firms generally have structured vacation schemes. That’s where they use the work experience placements, and you’re much less likely to be offered something ad hoc from a big firm. So, start small and put yourself in their shoes as well. Think about the person reading your letter, your cover letter. If you don’t ask too much of them, then it’s easier for them to say yes to you.

So, for example, ask to spend a couple of days at their firm rather than a couple of weeks, and it’s much, much easier for them to accommodate you for two days, and then you’ve got something that you can build on, you can say to the next firm, “Well, I’ve done work experience at this firm. Can I come to you for two days?” and they’ll think, “Well, she knows what she’s doing, so yes, we’ll have her for two days.”

The point to take away about work experience is that it’s such an important differentiator between you and the competition, and the amazing thing is it’s pretty much within your control. So, if you’re motivated enough and you get on with it, you’ll be able to show, firstly, a commitment to law, and secondly, that you understand and you appreciate what skills solicitors need to be successful, and that you can demonstrate them to work experience, and this is what firms want to see on the work experience section of the application forms. You’ll be writing an average of 100, 200 words per placement, and you have to link the experience gains with skills developed.

So, say, as an example, you sat with a local firm and wrote an article for their client magazine and proofread the magazine before it was published. The skills you’ve learnt there, whilst that might seem quite boring to you, is how to draft well and attention to detail. But, you can’t just put that down. You’ve got to show that you know why that skill is important to the role of trainee. So, drafting, why is that important? Well, good drafting maximizes efficiency and clarity, and it reduces the likelihood of potential points of defeat in legal documents. Really important. Attention to detail is important because, at the end of the day, mistakes cost time and money to correct, and they have reputational costs.

So, you need to be setting out not just what you did, but what you did, the skill you learned, and finally, why that skill is important for trainees.

James: Brilliant. You’ve absolutely nailed that, Sarah, and one piece of advice I’d add, when applying for work experiences, put yourself in the position of the people you’re applying for. I mean, if they get a letter just saying, “Can I have work experience?” from their point of view, it’s time, it’s effort. They’ve got to find you something to do, they’ve got to look after you, they’ve got to escort you around the building or whatever it is. If you can specify what you want to do. So, as you mentioned, I’d love to come and do work experience to help you with your proofreading, or help you with even if it’s filing or something. At least, whatever it is, at least they know that, then, what they can put you to work to do, it makes it more attractive in their eyes.

Sarah: Absolutely. I agree.

James: So, moving on then to the next question. I really like, in the book, you’ve got some really good do’s and don’ts of the application process. Maybe, Sarah, we can touch upon some of your favorite do’s and favorite don’ts for people applying so they can stand out.

Sarah: Sure. I would say, in terms of the do’s, the application forms, deadlines. You’ve got to know when they are, you’ve got to be organized, you’ve got to submit your application form well in advance of the deadlines. I didn’t know this when I first started applying for the training contracts, but some firms will invite their successful applicants to interview on a first-come, first-served basis.

So, rather than waiting until the application deadline’s past and then reviewing all of the application in one go. They’ll do it on that first-come, first-served basis, and remember, all the time, how competitive this is. Don’t let someone else take that training contract space just because they’ve been more organized than you and got in there a month before you. So, know when the deadlines are and submit your application form in advance.

James: That’s a brilliant point, and I know when I was helping out with the graduate recruitment at a big management consultancy, you’d have a steady flow of applications in, and then it would sort of slowly rise towards the end. Let’s say if their deadline was December, the end of December, you would just have an avalanche of all of these applications.

Sarah: Yeah, and it’s harder to stand out, then, isn’t it?

James: Definitely. If you were one of 10 applications received in a day compared to one of 200 applications received on the last day, it just makes it so much more difficult.

Sarah: Yeah, I totally agree. I would also say terminology is really important to an application form. Something that I’ve learnt since doing the consultancy in student universities is that students tend to think firms are companies. Don’t call them companies in your application form. That’s a big no-no, and it shows that you haven’t really understood the business structure. As is calling a firm by another firm’s name, but we spoke about it before. It’s just a big no-no. And it’s easy to do in a copy and paste job. Nobody likes that and your application will go in the bin. So, those are two big no-nos that do crop up more than you’d think.

In terms of terminology, some smaller firms preferred to be called niche rather than high street. So, if you’re applying to a smaller firm, I would just have a look on their website and see how they refer to themselves, and I’d mimic it in the application form, because you don’t want to offend anybody and call them high street when they want to be called niche commercial or vice-versa.

And it’s the same if you have regional firms that have really high-quality work in a particular area and would prefer to be likened to medium-sized commercial firms rather than a regional neighbour of theirs. So, just have a look at the website and see how they are referring to themselves. That’s the safest bet.

I’d also recommend copy and pasting all the long-form questions in the application form into Word, and this will allow you to keep an eye on both the word count and spelling and grammar. Don’t go over the word count, whatever you do. Way better to be 50 words under than five words over. Some application forms will just cut you off automatically, but some won’t. And if you’re over the word limit, then all you’re showing is that you can’t adhere to any instructions and that you can’t be concise. So, don’t do that.

Again, you’ve got to be checking your application before you submit it because it’s so competitive. Firms really are looking for any reason to whittle down applicants. So, if you’ve got a spelling mistake, you’re out. They’ll definitely check it.

And my last do for application forms is choose your language really carefully. Don’t use redundant language. So, think about the words you’re using and make sure that you’re always using action verbs. Verbs like “innovated, generated, overhauled”, don’t use passive words like, “I helped,” or, “I assisted, I supported.” You want to be giving the person you’re speaking to a really colorful image of what you did, and what you can do in the future.

So, don’t use those passive words. Use the action verbs, and don’t stop there. Quantify the effect of that action verb to really hit home the point. So, for example, “When working in the property department, I generated,” that’s your action verb, “a set of precedent email responses for clients’ FAQs.” So, now, you quantify it. This ensured consistency throughout the department as to what is conveyed to clients, and enabled the department to communicate more efficiently. So, you can see that it’s much better than, “I helped my supervisor to generate precedent email responses,” because that doesn’t tell you anything at all, and you’ve really dumbed down what you did towards that.

James: That’s a brilliant point, and one thing I’d add, just linked to that is when you’re talking about things specifically, maybe, more at university, is talk about what you did as opposed to what a group did. They’re not hiring the group; they’re hiring you. So, make sure you blow your own trumpet and you talk about the impact that you made.

Sarah: Yeah, you must. You absolutely must. No one else is going to do it for you.

James: Definitely. So, we’ve had some brilliant do’s there. How about some of the don’ts that you see that hold people back.

Sarah: I think the only thing I’d say on this is — well, the best advice I can give you in terms of the don’ts is don’t do bulk applications, like we said before. That’s the point I really want to labour. It would be obvious to the person reading your application that you haven’t done enough research if you do do bulk applications. Fewer high quality applications, far, far better.

James: That’s brilliant advice. So, moving swiftly on because time is running away with us. I really liked, in the book, Sarah, how you looked at some of the classic questions that people guaranteed are going to be faced with, and then broke them down in terms of what they’re looking for and also how to answer them. So, maybe if we can just look at a couple of those. So, starting with the first one. Why do you want to be a solicitor? What advice would you give here to answering this correctly?

Sarah: If you do get that question, “Why do you want to be a solicitor?” don’t just answer that question even if the question doesn’t specifically say, “Why do you want to be a solicitor at our firm?” that’s the question that you need to have in mind when you have your answer is the “at our firm” part. So, you got to link your answer back to the firm, and then that shows that you’ve done your research, and that’s how you get those brownie points. That’s what I’d say about that question. As you say, I know that we’re slightly running out of time. Do you want me to move on to the extracurricular activities, because that’s one that’s often asked?

James: Yeah, so let’s have a look at that one. So, when you’re asked, how would you talk about the details of extracurricular things from university, and from work, and what are they looking for with this question?

Sarah: Basically, the firm wants you to show that you are an interesting and well-rounded person. They want to know they can share an office with you, but also giving you another opportunity, aside from the work experience section of the form, for you to highlight that you have those skills that you need to be a successful solicitor. So, if you’re really sporty, then you can use this hobby to show that you’ve got good leadership and good teamwork skills.

Another tip for this particular question is use examples by your success that’s easily quantifiable so it makes it easier for the person reading application forms to judge your achievements. So, just as a quick example, I like keeping fit. You wouldn’t write it like this, but I like keeping fit, and recently, I ran the half-marathon for charity. The aim was to raise 200 quid. I doubled my target and I raised 400\. Now, I’m training for the full marathon in Timbuktu, wherever, and link it back to firm. So, like, “I know that you participate in an annual 10K run. This is something I would  love to participate in if I joined as a trainee.”

So, in summary, use quantifiable examples where your success can be easily measured and you’ll be remembered. Demonstrate, through these examples, that you have honed the skills solicitors need to be successful. And if you can link it back to the firm, then why not?

James: Yeah, I like that one. And one which all companies like to think that they’re different and that they’re different places to each of the companies, and they always talk about their values. So, a question that’s often asked is our values are really important to the firm. You know, explain why values are so important to a successful firm. What would you suggest here is being a good structure for an answer?

Sarah: Well, I think your first protocol has to be check the websites to make sure you know what the values are. You can’t have a generic answer where you just discuss values as a general concept. So, if you do get this question and you reply with a generic answer, you’ll highlight to them that you probably don’t fit into the culture and the ethos at the firm, and also that you haven’t done enough research. So, you need to have done your firm-specific research to answer a question like that. But, the full answers are all set out in the book and we’ll give you the proper structure.

James: Definitely, and that’s a nice point for us to mention that. In the show notes, you’ll be able to find links to the book, and also a full transcript of everything we discuss today, which you can find at GraduateJobPodcast.com/trainingcontract. So, Sarah, maybe if we move on to the next stage following the online application. You’re likely to have a telephone or Skype interview at some point. What advice would you give people here about how to perform well at the telephone or Skype interview?

Sarah: Well, if we just step back a second and put it in some context. The basic process is that you submit your application form. If they like you, they’ll send you the online aptitude test, and if you can navigate your way through those, then you’ll be asked to telephone or video interview. That’s where we are in the process when we’re at this stage. They’re really good for firms because they are a cheap screening before the assessment center. And remember how competitive it is. They can’t possibly invite every applicant to interview, so they’ve got to have something, primary screening to whittle down the numbers.

To be honest, with the advance of technology, more and more firms are looking towards the video interview and away from the telephone interview, which is a bit of a shame because the video interview is a little bit more artificial, a little bit more awkward because there’s nobody on the other end of the line for you to bounce conversation off.

But, to give you a bit more information on the video interview, you log on to a website, you’ll do a practice question, then you’ll start. And the worst thing about the video interview is that — well, once you’ve done a couple, you’ll be fine, but it’s not knowing the format. So, you’ll probably be asked four or five questions in total. The questions pop up on your screen, they’re written on your screen, and you’re given around 15 seconds to prepare before you start to be recorded by your webcam. And then the numbers will flash up: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 as the countdown, and then recording will automatically start, and you’ll have a time limit probably around two minutes, after which time will be cut off automatically.

So, if you can practice that sort of pressurized answering questions in that sort of environment, then that’s the best practice that you can possibly do. Some typical video interview questions might be, “What has been your biggest setback and what did you do to address this?” or, “Tell us about a commercial issue you have seen in the news that has interested you, and explain how it is relevant to our firms.”

So, you can see, if they ask you a commercial question like that, you have to have done all your commercial — you have to be commercially aware and done all that research, and the firm-specific research, because if not, before you even got to the assessment center, they’re asking you about it, and you’ve got 15 seconds where you can’t really do much research in 15 seconds. So, it will pay to have done that beforehand.

James: Definitely. I can see why it will be daunting to do for the first time. So, really, it’s practice is key. Also, touching upon, you mentioned, the psychometric tests which you’re going to face. So, numerical, and verbal reasoning, and situational judgment, and make sure you check out the sponsor for the show, CareerGym.com, who’ve got a whole suite of these that you can practice because it is such an easy step that so many people fail at is they just don’t put their time and effort into practicing psychometric tests, and it is just a case of practice makes perfect.

But, from speaking to graduate recruiters, offline, the number of people that fall at this step is really large, and it’s people just don’t put the — they’ll put loads of effort into doing the online application, but then sort of just think, “It will be alright,” but you really do have to practice, because otherwise, you’ll just fall at that hurdle.

Sarah: Agreed.

James: So, following on then from a successful, if not daunting, Skype interview or video interview, we then get to the assessment center. Sarah, can you give listeners any clues as to what they’re likely to face at the assessment center and also how they can stand out and perform well?

Sarah: Of course, yes. So, for the larger firms, they’re going to last — the assessment center will last about part of the day, and it will include a number of different activities. You might have an interview with partners, or HR, or perhaps a blend of both. You might have a speed networking exercise, a group exercise, which can take many forms, a presentation, and intro exercise, written tests, you might have a networking lunch, and you might have a tour of the office.

I’ll just give you a word of warning with regards to the networking lunch and tour of the office. You’ll probably meet the current trainees at this stage, and whilst they’ll be similar to you in age, and you’ll probably have a nice chat with them if you walk around the office, they will be reporting directly back to the partners as to what they make of you afterwards. So, remain professional and don’t let your guard down.

James: Yeah, that’s a really good point. You’re always on, even the informal bits where you think, “I’m not being assessed.” You’re always assessed from the minute you walk in the door to getting on the tube around the corner, 100%.

Sarah: Exactly.

James: So, be careful with the language you’re using, stay positive, stay excited, but just be aware that you’re always being assessed.

Sarah: In terms of tips for performing well at the assessment center, I think the two main ones is good body language is absolutely key, and it’s something that lots of people fail to take account of. It makes such a difference. If you smile when you enter a room — I mean, don’t look totally manic, but a nice smile, people are really warm to you, and they’ll engage with you more if you smile at them. And if you have more than one interviewer, and one of them ask the questions, look at both of them when you respond. Don’t just focus your attention on one, because I can guarantee that the other one will notice and will feel that they’re not engaging with you at all, and probably won’t want to. So, good body language is really key. Sit up straight in your chair, etcetera, etcetera.

Secondly, you really need to know your application form inside-out, and I’ve been caught out with this myself before. Your interviewer is going to ask you questions based on your forms. So, before you go in there, prepare questions you think they might ask you, and even prepare answers to these questions. I remember being asked about transliterating brand names and IP law in my interview for this Silver Circle firm a while ago, and could I remember anything at all about the article I’d written on that two years ago? Absolutely not. No, I could not. I remembered nothing. I didn’t even remember what the word “transliterating” meant. So, that was awkward.

And I would suggest just brushing up. If you say you’ve written something, just brush up on it before you go. Reread it so that you’ve got something that you can talk about. Because, the interviewer wants to talk about different things with different people. They’re not going to ask every single person the same thing, so try and preempt that a little bit. And if I could just — sorry James.

James: Sarah, go on.

Sarah: If I could just touch on the group exercises quickly, that would be really good because that’s where I can really help you guys to get some points and edge over the competition without even knowing what exercise you’ll be given on the day. So, if we take, as a starting point, the fact you know, in a group exercise, there are certain qualities you’re going to have to demonstrate. So, that would be communication skills, and that includes listening as well as talking, which most people don’t take account of. Time management, motivation and enthusiasm, and leadership skills. So, just bear these in mind throughout the exercise.

And if we just take time management as an example. Say you’ve been given 20 minutes to come up with an idea, and 15 minutes have gone by, you can show that you’ve got good time management by reminding everybody you only have five minutes left, and it’s such an easy brownie point. And you can bet that, whoever, Karren Brady, with a clipboard in the corner is going to notice that and she’s going to write that down, it will be a nice, big tick against your name.

Or, take teamwork. Be aware of who is and who isn’t participating. Ask the shy guy in the corner what his views are on a particular point, and if he says something totally ridiculous, then he said something totally ridiculous, and don’t poo-poo it, but just be encouraging. Because, again, Karen Brady is going to be looking at how you interact with others, and let’s face it, nobody will want to share an office with someone who always has to shout the loudest. Because, if you adopt that persona in a group exercise, you’re just going to come across as somebody who can’t listen and is difficult to train. So, you need to get ahead.

James: Yeah, they’re brilliant examples there, and I know, when I’ve been assessing in group exercises, it’s always funny at the beginning when they kick off because people, almost, they have in their head that they’re going to be the timekeeper, so you’ll get several people who will volunteer, like, “I’ll keep time, I’ll keep time,” but then just sort of forget that they’ve taken this role. So, if you’re going to volunteer to be the timekeeper, which is a good thing to do if you follow Sarah’s advice, make sure you do it. Don’t get to the end and then suddenly think, “Oh shxt, I’ve forgotten I was going to be keeping time.” It doesn’t hold you in good stead.

Sarah: No, absolutely.

James: And how about some advice for the partner interview, Sarah? How can you stand out when you get in front of the partner?

Sarah: I think that, with that interview, it’s the only time in the whole assessment day where it’s just you and you’re not having to worry about what someone else is doing. It’s just you and them. So, feel free to inject a bit of personality to it. Don’t be, or try not to be really nervous. Just try and be yourself at that point in the interview because it’s the only time that you’re going to have where it’s just you and them, and I should say you don’t have to think about what someone else is doing.

James: That’s a really good point, and at the end of the day, these partners might be seeing you and they might have been there a few years, but they’re still people. They still want it to be interesting. So, like I said, if you can bring your personality in, if you can walk in there with a smile, and you can make it enjoyable for them, then it’s more likely to go well for you than if it’s a really painful half-an-hour for them.

Sarah: Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.

James: We’ve all been in interviews like that.

Sarah: Yeah, don’t be afraid to be yourself.

James: So, Sarah, any final advice that you want to touch upon that we’ve not mentioned so far for the application process, as a whole, that you think listeners would benefit from?

Sarah: You know what, I think that we’ve touched on most things, but I would just say that if you keep getting rejections from training contract applications, you’ve just got to try and stay positive, because you will get one. It’s just how much time, effort you’re willing to put into it, and how much free time that you’re willing to sacrifice. It has to be something that you really want, and maybe, you’re not succeeding in it, because perhaps, you’re applying to lots of American firms, and you’ve got 3 B’s at an A level or whatever, just take a step back from it and see if there’s anything that you can do to give yourself a bit more of a chance. For example, if it’s doing more research, making your applications general, or whether it’s applying to a different category of law firm where you have more chance of getting a training contract. You might be better off going to a national firm or a regional firm. But, don’t give up. If it’s something that you’re really passionate about, don’t give up. It’s difficult, but stay positive and you’ll be fine.

James: That’s brilliant advice for us to finish the first part of the interview, Sarah. As you mentioned, it took you a couple years, and you’re never failing if you don’t give up. If you keep going, then you’ll get there in the end.

Sarah: Agreed.

James: So, Sarah, moving on then to the weekly staple questions I like to ask each guest at the end of each interview. So, firstly, I’m interested for your top tip here. What one book would you recommend that listeners should read?

Sarah: You know, what I think I would recommend. Know the City by Christopher Stoakes.

It’s a really good book if you’re looking to train at a commercial firm because it makes the financial markets really easy to understand and it will really help with your commercial awareness as well, and lots and lots of students have bought this book and read it over many years, and people really recommend it, so that’s the book I would go with.

James: Ah, brilliant. That’s a top piece of advice there, and that will be linked to in the show notes over at GraduateJobPodcast.com/trainingcontracts. And Sarah’s been far too modest, but I really do recommend her book, which you’ll be able to find, again, in the show notes. It is packed full of brilliant information. We’ve barely skimmed the surface, today, of the detail that’s there, especially around the questions you’re likely to face and how to construct those answers. So, I would highly recommend getting yourself a copy. Next question: which website or internet resource would you recommend to listeners, Sarah?

Sarah: I think I would recommend a legal directory for general research, so the Legal 500 or the Lex 100, because they give a lot of information about all of the different law firms that you might be interested in. So, I would start my research there, so that’s the one I would go for.

James: And then is it RollOnFriday for the more scurrilous stuff?

Sarah: That’s it, yeah. RollOnFriday, I would take it with, perhaps, a pinch of salt, but it is actually quite useful, as well, at sort of getting a sense of the culture of the firm. I might disregard the worst comments and the best comments, and what’s in between, I might be listening to.

James: Yeah, I think that’s — beware the people who have axes to grind on this sort of thing.

Sarah: Yeah, exactly.

James: And final question then: what one tip can listeners implement today to help them on their job search?

Sarah: I think that, in terms of a tip to help people in their job search, people might not want to start working on this because it might seem like a bit of a mountain to climb. But, if you just do a bit today, you’d be amazed at where you can be in a week’s time, two weeks’ time, a month’s time. So, just try and sit down at your computer and do a bit a day, even if you just make the commitment to open your computer and research, go on the Legal 500\. Just do a tiny bit a day and you’ll be amazed at where that will take you.

James: Little and often does win the race at the end there. Sarah, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on this show. What’s the best way that listeners can get in touch with you the book and the work that you do?

Sarah: Well, I suggest adding me on LinkedIn. So, that’s Sarah Cave, and I work for a firm called Clarke Willmott, so you can find me quite easily on LinkedIn. I’m more than happy if you want to connect with me and ask me any questions. Feel free to message me. I’m more than happy to help.

James: Perfect, Sarah. Thank you so much for appearing on the Graduate Job Podcast.

Sarah: Thank you, James. Cheers.

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