Episode 83 – A Smarter Graduate Job Search, with John Lees

February 17, 2019 Podcast

Hello and welcome to the 83rd of the episode of the Graduate Job Podcast where I am re-joined on the show by career expert John Lees as we discuss having a smarter search for a graduate job. John shares some absolute job search advice gold in this episode as we cover hints and tips for how you can be smarter and more efficient in how you go about getting a graduate job. We explore the idea of your ‘confidence window’ when you apply for jobs, what it is and why it is crucially important. We delve into rookie mistakes that most graduates make when they apply for a graduate job, and how you can avoid them to set yourself apart from the crowd. We touch upon dealing with rejection when you apply for a graduate job, and how to interpret the responses (or lack of responses) that you might get from an employer. No matter where you are in your jobsearch, if you’ve started applying, or still thinking about which jobs to apply to, this is an episode which you aren’t going to want to miss. Now the only link you need to remember from today is https://www.graduatejobpodcast.com/smart, as that has all of the links to everything which we discuss and a full transcript which you can download, so make sure you head on over there.

And don’t forget to check out today’s sponsor who are our friends over at CareerGym.com. Career Gym is the number one place for you to undertake all of your psychometric tests which you will face when you apply for a graduate job. No matter what graduate job you apply for you’re going to have to face some type of verbal reasoning, situational judgment, and working style tests. You can practice these at CareerGym.com. Use code GJP to get 20% off all of their tests!

MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT:

  • Hints and tips for having a smarter graduate job search
  • What your ‘confidence window’ is, and why it is crucially important when you are applying for graduate jobs
  • The top ‘myths’ you need to avoid when you are applying for a graduate job
  • The rookie mistakes that most graduates make when they apply for a graduate job
  • Why ‘following your curiosity’ is the golden rule which will help you find a graduate job you love
  • How you need to interpret a rejection you receive for a graduate job
  • Learn why focussing too much on your recent academic experience is a rookie mistake when applying for a graduate job

Don’t forget, also make sure you check out https://www.graduatejobpodcast.com/subscribe which links to how to subscribe on Itunes, Spotify, Youtube, and by email. So something for everyone there.

SELECTED LINKS:

  • Assessment Day – One of the top providers of psychometric tests. Click HERE and support the show
  • Career Gym – Use code GJP to get 20% off all of their tests!
  • Job Test Prep – One of the top providers of psychometric tests. Click HERE and support the show

Transcript – Episode 83 – A Smarter Graduate Job Search, with John Lees

Announcer: Welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, your home for weekly information and inspiration to help you get the graduate job of your dreams.

James: Hello and welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, with your host James Curran. The Graduate Job Podcast is your home for all things related to helping you on your journey to finding that amazing job. Each episode I bring together the best minds in the industry, speaking to leading authors, graduate recruiters and career coaches who bring decades of experience into a byte size weekly 30 minute-ish show. Put simply, this is the show I wish I had when I graduated.

Hello and welcome to the 83rd of the episode of the Graduate Job Podcast where I am re-joined on the show by career expert John Lees as we discuss having a smarter search for a graduate job. John shares some absolute job search advice gold in this episode as we cover hints and tips for how you can be smarter and more efficient in how you go about getting a graduate job. We explore the idea of your ‘confidence window’ when you apply for jobs, what it is and why it is crucially important. We delve into rookie mistakes that most graduates make when they apply for a graduate job, and how you can avoid them to set yourself apart from the crowd. We touch upon dealing with rejection when you apply for a graduate job, and how to interpret the responses (or lack of responses) that you might get from an employer. No matter where you are in your jobsearch, if you’ve started applying, or still thinking about which jobs to apply to, this is an episode which you aren’t going to want to miss. Now the only link you need to remember form today is graduatejobpodcast.com/smart, as that has all of the links to everything which we discuss and a full transcript which you can download, so make sure you head on over there.

Before we start let’s have a little message from today’s sponsor who are who are our friends over at CareerGym.com. There are some things in life you can’t escape, death people walking really slowly in front of you in London, and also psychometric tests when you apply for a graduate job. Now I can’t help with those slow walkers, but I can help with the psychometric tests as the the only way to get really good at them is to practice practice practice, which is where Career Gym comes in. Career Gym is the number one place for you to undertake all of your psychometric tests which you will face when you apply for a graduate job. The bottom line is that no matter what graduate job you apply for, from the global giants to that small company around the corner from you, you’re going to have to do some type of verbal and numerical reasoning, situational judgment, and working style tests. At Career Gym.com you can practice all of these and they come with detailed explanations and you can compare yourself against your peers or do them under time pressure. And as a valued listener of the show they will give you 20% off of all of their tests if you use the code GJP. So, head over to http://www.CareerGym.com that’s CareerGym.com and use the code GJP to get 20% off all of their tests and start practicing today. Now, on with the show.

James Curran: I’m very pleased to welcome back to the Graduate Job Podcast for a record-breaking fourth time, a man with a velvety voice who needs no introduction, but I’ll introduce him anyway. Career expert and best-selling author of books such as job classics, How To Get a Job You’ll Love, and the Success Code, welcome John Lees.

John Lees: Hello. Good to be with you again.

James: And John, I was checking. It’s been about 18 months since you were last on the show. So, aside from working on the updated edition of How To Get a Job You’ll Love, what else has been keeping you busy?

John: Well, it’s a range of events, I suppose. We’ve been doing workshops and talking to people, and mulling over one or two other book ideas as well.

James: Ah, it looks like we’re going to be touching upon those upcoming book ideas later on in this show. So today, we’re going to explore the topic of smarter job searching. An important topic because although you can’t fault many people’s effort to try and get a graduate job, often they aren’t doing it in the most efficient way.

So, let’s maybe start by talking about an idea that really resonated with me within the most recent edition of How To Get a Job You’ll Love, links of which can be found over in the show notes at GraduateJobPodcast.com/smart. You talked about the topic of the “confidence window” and why time is of the essence when looking for a graduate job. Starting here, could you explain what this is and why the confidence window is important?

John: Sure. Well, coaches do all kinds of different work in the world of work, but career coaches have a very specific objective in mind, and that’s to how people make some kind of a change, and that could simply be getting a first job. So, that’s a time-bound deadline, if you like, and time is really important because it relates to confidence.

So, when people are looking for jobs for the first time, they’ve just put their first CV together, or maybe they’re going back to the marketplace, often they feel relatively positive about themselves. Because, if you think about it, they’ve just been cataloguing their own skills, and they see jobs advertised and they want to have a go at them.

So, their confidence level is often very, very high, and that can be affected very, very quickly by market response. And if you talk to workshops with graduates, for example, and say, “What’s the typical response you get when you’ve made an application, particularly if it’s an online application?” the typical response is silence, and we read things into that silence.

And it’s surprising how quickly it changes people’s behaviours. And I don’t mean months; I mean, sometimes just a matter of days that people go from thinking, “Yeah, I’m highly employable. I’m aiming at these top employers,” to right down to, “I’m going to lower my sights. I’m going to do something quite ordinary. I’m going to only apply for jobs where it would traditionally not have been filled by graduates.”

So, it does kind of collapse fairly quickly. So, what I try and do, and lots of other career coaches do the same is to say, “Well, you have a confidence window, which is a period of time when you will still be energized and upbeat about it.” It pays to do things efficiently and effectively, things that get results while you’re still in that window rather than reinventing what you’re doing or making classic mistakes.

James: Speaking to the clients I coach, it is one of the areas that I find really frustrating is when they apply for graduate jobs and just don’t get a response at all. And I completely echo their frustration. You put a lot of time and effort into an online application, for example, but then you don’t get anything back. Maybe just the generic email saying, “Sorry, you’ve not been successful.”

But, when I’ve been speaking to the graduate recruiters and they’re saying, “We get 10,000 applications, of which we get rid of 6,000 people at that stage,” it’s just not feasible to go back to each one individually and say, “This is the area that let you down.”

John: Sure, and that’s something that, really, we all need to understand is that customer practice has changed. There was a time when it was a kind of a business etiquette for every applicant to receive some kind of a response from an application, and then a short, but friendly, letter saying why they weren’t shortlisted or why the process wasn’t continued.

Now, the business norm is silence, and the problem for individuals is that we read anything we want into that silence. We read it as, “My CV isn’t good enough, or my degree isn’t good enough, or I went to the wrong university.” But, the point is it’s just silence. It doesn’t actually tell us anything at all.

James: That’s a really good point, and it could have been that you just, by the time you’d applied, they’d filled all the spots. And your application was brilliant, but it was too late and there were no spaces left.

John: It’s dangerous because if you’re reading into your own information, into a space where there is no data, then actually, when you look at what people do, they say, “Well, I’m going to go and rewrite my CV.” Well, why? You’ve got nothing to guide you there. So, it’s a very unhelpful process.

James: So, time is of the essence to make sure that you do take advantage of that initial period, as John said, where you are full of confidence. So, maybe then leading on that is the area of rookie mistakes and that people need to avoid so they don’t end up losing confidence when they are making those initial applications. So, maybe if we move on there, John, what are some of the common rookie mistakes that you see graduates are making at the moment?

John: The reason for looking at rookie mistakes is that if you spend the time where you have got the most energy and the most confidence, making ordinary mistakes, then you’re almost guaranteeing that you’re not going to get very far in the process. And the other reason for avoiding rookie mistakes is that everyone else is making them. So, it makes your application look very vanilla, very standardized.

So, a good example of a rookie mistake that graduates make, but I do emphasize the fact that every generation makes the same mistakes. A good example would be, perhaps, spending too much time on your CV talking about your recent studies without saying anything at all about how they relate to the world of work that you’re pointing towards and without saying anything about your skills.

And that may sound painfully obvious, but it is actually the number one complaint that graduate employees mentioned to me, which is essentially because it’s the dominating recent experience, you’re thinking about your studies, you’re thinking about all the essays you’ve been writing and the books you’ve read. That’s what you tend to reflect back onto the piece of paper.

Well, an employer is probably happy to know that you’ve got a good degree, vaguely interested in the subject. But, beyond that, wants to know well what can you actually do? What are the skills that you are bringing into the workplace? So, that would be number one.

The number two, I think, would be to kind of download a standard CV that you haven’t thought about very much and just fill it full of standard clichés. For example, saying that you’re a keen worker, and a self-starter, and a great communicator, and all of those things that you see in every standard CV. Because, again, it makes for an undifferentiated message. You’re really saying, “I’m just the same as everyone else applying, so why would you bother to shortlist me?”

James: I completely agree with those two points, and when I’m looking at the graduate CVs and you see people who’ve maybe done — they really want to talk in detail, as you mentioned, about the specifics of their course: there’s loads of acronyms, there’s loads of titles of dissertations that they’ve written, which very interesting, but it bears no relation to the actual job that they’re applying for, and you know that the graduate recruiter reading it doesn’t really care, as you said, as long as they know that you’ve got a degree from an alright university, and it’s the grades are whatever they’re looking for, 2:1, etcetera and above. And the dissertation you did in the third year doesn’t really interest them.

John: Yeah, exactly. Well, it’s not that they’re being rude about it. It’s just that it’s not on their radar. They are really not that — because it doesn’t mean anything to them. It’s a bit like talking about a hobby or an interest. That has no relationship to the world of work that they’re focusing their attention on. In the sense, it’s a waste of exposure time because when they’re reading your CV or if they meet you and you’re talking about things that they really have no interest in, you’re missing the opportunity to score points where you can present information which is actually relevant and interesting. And this is a bit more later on about transferable skills as well.

James: And the second issue you mentioned then about the generic terms of teamworking, etcetera, and the generic stuff that tends to go in, how can people combat that then? It’s such an easy trap to fall into. How do you not just fill your CV and application form with generic cut-and-paste, “I’m a good worker,” etcetera?

John: I think the first thing is to be aware of anything that is simply a cliché. So, a good rule is to say follow a rule that says claims plus evidence. So, even if you say something about working in teams, think about specific context. Think about what you’ve added to a team, particularly if it’s a difficult team context or where you’ve had to work to difficult targets, or there’s something out of the ordinary. So, anything that looks like a bare, unadorned, bland cliché needs a lot of support.

The second is to really look hard at your experience, and one of the ways I sometimes get people to put a CV together is to say, “Just go away and do an unedited list of anything that looks like an achievement.” In a university context, that could be communicating something, writing something, leading a discussion, facilitating a seminar group, it could be fundraising, it could be out of study activities, it could be to do with work placements, or any kind of work activity.

The evidence is usually there. It’s often missing from the first CV that a graduate puts together. So, without saying, “Yeah, this is useful and worthwhile,” just bring down that catalogue of information, and then from that, extract bullet points that you know you want to include on the first page of your CV. I mean, that is the basic step, if you like, of saying, “What have I done that’s of interest to an organization, and then how do I foreground that early on in the CV?”

Because, if you think about it, the average CV tends to start by talking about the most recent degree subject that somebody’s done, and that may be the fourth or fifth thing that an employer is actually interested in.

James: Completely agree, and if you think about the aim of a CV, the aim of the CV is not to get you the job. The aim of the CV is to get you to the next step of getting an interview. So, less does tend to be more, in my experience. You don’t need two pages crammed in down to a font 7 just so you can squeeze in all the information about the group work you did in the second year that was really interesting to you.

John: Absolutely.

James: If you can pull the relevant facts out that are going to interest you, get you to the next stage in a nice, clear, one-page CV, then just go for that.

John: Yeah, but don’t get too hung up on one page, because I’ve been to graduate CV events or job fairs when I’ve looked at CVs and people bring their one-pager. And as you said, the font size is so small that I can’t read it. Because, employers are not that hung up on those things. Two pages, it’s fine, as long the first page contains the messages that you want to get across. The second page can be supporting information that somebody would glance through.

So, let me just tell you one little thing I would do in those circumstances. If somebody comes to me at a job fair and says, “Look at my CV please,” I’ll put it face-down on the table, I’ll say, “Just tell me what’s interesting about you. What are you really focused on, what do you really love doing?” and I hear some great stories. And then I flip the piece of paper over, and I quickly glance down and say, “Well, where do I find this in the first five lines in your CV?” and it’s never there.

So, that’s just, apart from the cataloguing exercise I talked about earlier, the headlines thing. Talk to a friend about what are the things you really enjoy doing, what are you good at, what could you bring to an organization? Get a friend to write those down, and then make sure that evidence is what leads in your CV.

James: Listeners, job search gold there from John. That’s why I get him back on the show. That’s such a great idea, John. And as you mentioned often, the interest in stuff is probably found down the bottom of page 2, at the bottom of the page as opposed to up at the front on page 1. So, I like that.

John: Or, it’s not there at all.

James: Of course. So, moving on then, we’ve talked about some rookie mistakes that are going to slow you down and get you further out of the confidence zone of when we start applying. Changing topic then, on the flip side, what are some of the top activities that you encourage that are going to make a graduate job hunt shorter?

John: I have some sympathy with people who say, “Listen, I have to apply online because a lot of big organizations that have graduate processes do require you to jump through the hoops.” And in fact, if you think about it, that’s kind of a test, which is that you comply with the instructions that you do everything you’re asked to do. However, and this is a big however, if you just comply, then you’re very unlikely to put in a highly-visible application.

So, you start to learn different job-searching behaviours, and one of the things to do when you’re going through an online process is to try to talk to people about the evidence that you’re going to submit. So, you use alumni associations, you use contacts that you have, not to get you leveraged for special treatment, but to really start to understand the language which the organization finds most relevant and interesting.

You can do a little bit of that yourself by digging around in the organization’s own website and looking at real job profiles and so on. But, you get no better evidence than if you talk to somebody who can say, “Yeah, this organization is going through a change at the moment, and these are the kinds of people it’s really looking for. These are the issues, and the topics, and the areas of focus that matter most to it.”

So, then what, of course, you’re doing is really making sure that you’ve decoded the process to the extent that you can provide the right bits of information in the right language to help you through that initial sort. I mean, you have to bear in mind that where an organization is looking at hundreds of applications, the first sort may well be done by somebody relatively junior. It may well be done by a computer.

I mean, it’s fairly random, but there are ways of decoding it quite successfully. Because, if you really understand the kind of top 10 things that an organization is looking for and make sure that the information is in your CV and in the right language, then you’ve got a much better chance of getting through.

But, because going through that kind of mass application process is always fairly arbitrary, then you need other things in your locker, and every generation needs these things as well. And I would include, for example, making direct applications to organizations. In fact, it’s a good idea to start to draw up a wish list of maybe six or eight organizations that you would really like to work for.

Because then, what you’re doing all the time is gathering information, looking in-depth, then maybe finding people to talk to who already work there, and again, alumni association’s fantastic for that purpose. But, having that wish list is very useful because when somebody says, “Well, what kind of role are you looking for when they’re assisting you generally?” You can give those as examples.

And sometimes, it means you just make a direct application, and there have been graduates that have got interesting roles doing that, going outside the standard process different times of year and making direct applications. It’s not a kind of classic or golden breakthrough, but it’s probably, in terms of the return on time invested, it’s probably easily out there, particularly in comparison with online searching, generally.

If you’re interested in working at smaller organizations, then use word-of-mouth, and don’t exclude those because an awful lot of jobs are created in this economy in SMEs, and generally, talking to far more people than you feel comfortable talking to. I mean, that’s my golden rule, really, is that talking to people, first of all, to discover about what you’re going to say about yourself, and practicing your messages, talking to people about their own careers, what their sector is like, talking to people about what organizations are really looking for at the moment and what language to use has lots of conversations to be had.

So, if you’ve got a picture in mind of how much of that you need to be doing, I would say immediately double it. Well, let me put it this way. When we come to the end of a program and somebody’s got a new job, we always say, “What would you do differently next time if you’re advising somebody else?” and the answer is they always say, “I’d start talking to people first.”

Today’s job market is very complex, built on relationships and connections as much as anything else. So, spending time talking to people — not that dreaded word “network”, because networking seems to imply that people are pushing down doors, and being extroverts, and telling people how strong you are. It’s not about that. It’s actually much more like following your curiosity bit really. It’s more like being a good investigative journalist, spending time with people, and just asking great questions and listening.

James: Completely agree, and I echo everything you said about alumni networks, and it’s just so easy to do now through LinkedIn, through the Alumni feature on LinkedIn. And getting the one-month free premium membership on LinkedIn won’t cost you anything, and then just you’ve got a month to message your alumni network, and fill your boots, and try and make those connections.

John: Yeah, and alumni associations are really good at it too. I mean, typically, if you say, “I’m looking for somebody who used to study this course and has gone on to work in finance,” or somebody who’s working in a particular organization, if you’re very specific about what you’re looking for, they’re helpful. And in fact, the great thing about alumni networks, I think, is they’re kind of pre-contracted. If I ring somebody up and say, “I’m in your network,” I don’t really have to explain much more. They’ll usually say yes before I’ve said very much.

James: Yeah, because that’s the whole point of joining the network in the first place, isn’t it? Completely agree. And then linked on from that is once you start having those connections, you’ll more likely find out about SMEs and small companies that are recruiting, and also as you mentioned, John, in terms of numbers, the numbers of grads who get jobs with SMEs compared to the hundred milk round companies is huge. The proportion is that the huge milk round companies take a very small proportion of the total graduate market. So, you’re more likely to find an exciting graduate job with lots of smaller companies that are out there at the moment.

John: Well, that relates to what I said earlier on about the confidence window is that if you’re only applying for big and obvious targets like the major organizations with their milk rounds, and then you don’t get through, misreading the information says I’m not suitable, and then if you lower your sights, you’re really not doing yourself a favour because, as you say, and I fully agree there are interesting graduate opportunities in lots of hidden-away places as well.

James: So, John time is moving on with us. Let’s move on to a part of a the chapter on smarter job searching on your latest edition of How To Get A Job You’ll Love that I really, really enjoyed, which is on job hunting myths. So, let’s maybe spend a little bit of time just exploring some of these. So, maybe starting firstly on the myth, “Qualifications are vital.” Now, this might attract some of the listeners who are spending all their time and energy getting degrees, but why do you think the idea that “qualifications are vital” is a bit of a myth?

John: It kind of relates to what we said earlier on. I mean, I’ve got a few qualifications as well, and I’d really like people to talk to me about them, but they are far more likely to talk about my experience in work and what I’ve done. So, generally speaking, employers don’t understand the full range of qualifications. There are thousands and thousands. I mean, there are literally different types of qualifications.

There are hundreds of different types of degrees. They don’t have the time to invest or say, “Well, what is the difference between qualification A and B?” What they want to know is, “What can this person deliver?” So, they use qualifications as a very rough filter often to say, “We’re looking at people because we want certain thinking skills. They want an intellectual standard. They want the ability to learn new things quickly to be able to communicate well in writing and so on.

So, if you think about what I’ve just said, that means that it’s all about the deliverables, really. Now, that sounds very functional, and I’m not saying that qualifications are irrelevant. They’re a fantastic preparation for the world of work, because learning to think well and to be able to communicate ideas, and to synthesize ideas, and to get things across, and to analyse and to understand that these are fantastic and really important skills.

James: And you’re seeing it with lots of the big graduate employers out at the moment having a move-away from the degree qualification classification that you’ve got. So, having a 2:1 as a compulsory down to knocking it down to a 2:2, or some of the big graduate employers have taken away the requirement for a degree at all. They do see the value of a degree, of course, and also open to the opportunities and other skills that you’ve got from different avenues of your life.

John: Yeah, they do.

James: They’re important, but they’re not the be-all and end-all.

John: And sometimes, just the word “graduate” in the opening profile is enough, and that’s really disappointing for people to hear. But, what actually happens is employers think, “Well, okay here’s a graduate. What can that graduate do? What’s the skill set?” And then once they’re interested in that, then they’ll go back and look at kind of where have you studied, and what level have you attained, and what are your areas and disciplines and so on? So, it’s not that it’s ignored. It’s just that it’s not the primary filter.

James: Okay, so moving on then to the next myth, and it’s one that we’ve sort of touched upon already, but let’s delve into it in a little bit more detail. It’s easiest to do everything online. I know that we’re speaking on an online podcast, and people will be listening to this online, but why is it not the easiest to do everything online when you’re looking for a graduate job?

John: There’s an irony here, because before we used computers to search for jobs, people used to stay at home, I mean literally stay at home because that’s where their landline was. This was before mobile phones were wildly available. So, if you’re looking for a job, literally you had to sit at home next to the phone in case somebody rang you up and offered you an interview.

So, when the electronic revolution happened, I think an awful lot of people thought, “Well, people can job-search from coffee shops or when they’re out an about.” And yes, they do some of that, but they still spend an awful lot of time basically working behind a screen. And whether it’s a laptop in the pub or sitting at home and not understanding that so much of the marketplace is driven by impact and it’s driven by relationships.

So, I never suggest anybody excludes online searching. The internet is a fantastic search tool that will tell you about recruiters, agencies that are hungry for candidates, it will tell you a vast amount about employers, and particularly if you look at their press page rather than just their recruitment pages, look at their press releases, and find out the things that they’re really interested that the world knows about.

But, at least a third of jobs across the whole range of jobs are filled by word-of-mouth in an age of highly-developed technology. So, what does that tell you? It tells you that one of the ways that the world of work has changed is that informal connections, in some ways, become even more important.

So, we talked about SMEs earlier on. SMEs, if they’re going to find new talent coming to the organization, yeah they may go through a formal process, but they’re quite unlikely to because it is so expensive to put together published advertisements, or online campaigns, or anything like that. They are far, far more likely to say, “Who do we already know? Who have we already met? Who can we get to know quickly through recommendations and introductions?” and even, “Who was that student who was with us on placement with us last summer?” and it’s as simple as that.

So, the online one is very attractive and it looks like work if you’re sitting at the keyboard filling in forms, and typing things, and sending things off, it looks like work. But, it’s also deeply unproductive because it’s easy to ignore. We forget an email within minutes of receiving it. But, we’re more likely to remember a phone call or a face-to-face meeting much, much longer.

James: Yeah, completely agree with that. And as you mentioned about who was that intern we had last year, it just shows the power of internships, and work experience, and just getting yourself in the door in front of them and sharing them what you can do, the memory will last so long.

John: Yeah.

James: Moving on to the next myth, and it’s one that I see a lot with the clients I coach – I tend to coach them out of it very quickly – is let’s apply for as many jobs as you can. As a strategy, this really doesn’t work, does it?

John: Well, no. And again, it’s sometimes misread with people kind of thinking, “Well, I don’t have to work very hard at looking for a job.” Well, yes you do, but you’re going to get better results with conversations. I mean, that’s sometimes teasing to say to people that you are far more likely to get an introduction to an organization chatting to the person standing next to you in the supermarket checkout queue than you are spending all day online just applying to job boards. And it’s just simply to do with the power of connections, and conversations, and relationships.

So, applying for lots of jobs usually means applying badly for random roles that you have very little connection. So, if you’re going to apply for 100 jobs and don’t really care about them, and you’re sending an untailored application, then what’s the result going to be? The result’s going to be that 99 of those, you’re never going to hear anything from at all, at least.

So, then we invent junk data so that people like that come to me and say, “I’ve applied for 200 jobs. I’ve only had one interview, therefore my return on that activity is 1 in 200, and I feel terrible.” It isn’t 1 in 200, because the real question is how many of those jobs were close to the centre of your targets? If you really understand the kind of role you’re looking for, and where you’re likely to get shortlisted, and you apply well for a couple of dozen jobs over the space of even months doing it well — because, doing it well often means having conversations around each of those applications, and that helps build your network and connections. So, confusing quantity and quality is a classic mistake.

James: Yeah, and you do often see in the newspaper every so often, they’ve written an article, and they’ll have a picture of some sort of glum-looking graduate, and the headline will be, “I’ve applied for 300 jobs and not any responses,” and you just think, “You must have applied terribly for 300 jobs if you’ve not had any response at all.” Just put time and effort in and apply for three well, and you’ll get a better response rate.

John: That couldn’t be more, yeah.

James: So, John time is running away with us. So, maybe let’s cover one final myth before we move on to the quick-fire questions today. So, this myth, “It’s a difficult job market at the moment. A job’s a job. Think of the money. I should just take any job that I can.”

John: I would also interrogate any job. The jobs that you do immediately after leaving university are always interesting. People understand, in today’s world, that people experiment in their 20’s. So, doing a range of things is fine as long as you’re able to say what your reason was in the future.

So, if you say, “I took this job in order to improve my skills, or this is a good learning experience,” that’s fine. But, just taking the first job that comes along and then staying in it without any particularly good reason, that starts to have a real impact, and you’ll still be talking about it in 10 years’ time.

So, it’s always worth interrogating to say if this is 10 out of 10 for me, 7 out of 10. 7 out of 10 is fine. But, if it’s a 3 out of 10, then there’s pretty good reasons why you might want to think very seriously about jumping into a different role. And if you are going to jump into it, to think about what your escape plan is as well that how you’re going to keep active in the job markets so that maybe you are moving on within the next six to 12 months, depending on the role.

James: And for listeners who maybe are in a job and in that situation where they’re in a job after university, and it’s not what they love, I would 100% recommend John’s book, How To Get A Job You Love. The last edition was out last September, and we have, I think it was the first time you were on the show, John, we delved specifically into the topic of how to get a job you love. You can find that over at GraduateJobPodcast.com/love. And our link to all of John’s appearances over in the show notes, which I mentioned earlier, which is GraduateJobPodcast.com/smart.

So, John let’s dive into the weekly staple questions. Interested to see your responses fourth time around. So, let’s kick off with what one book would you recommend to our listeners?

John: Well, I’ve just been reviewing a book called Resilience at Work which is written by Kathryn Jackson, Kathryn with a K, and it’s called Practical Tools for Career Success, and it really helps people inside organizations. So, it’s going to help people who are, once they’ve got a job, in thinking about the future of their career, because this, I think, reflects very, very accurately, the changing world of work.

It’s actually written by somebody who’s based in New Zealand, and one of the things it builds on is the experience of Christchurch in South Island after the earthquake really having to reinvent itself as a city and to apply resilience. So, yeah I think I would definitely like to recommend that.

James: And did you enjoy it?

John: Yes, it’s a very enjoyable book and very insightful as well in terms of — it’s about the interface between people who want to have exciting careers, but really also understanding how organizations are changing dramatically at the moment.

James: Very good. Just having a quick look on Amazon on that one. It’s not one I’ve come across, so I’ll maybe reach out to Kathryn and see if she wants to come on the show to discuss it. So, thanks for that recommendation, John. And next question: what’s one internet resource would you point our listeners towards?

John: You may have already had this one recommended in the past by other people, but I’m coming back to the Guardian Careers website. Guardian used to have a lot of careers information in its printed version, and most of that has disappeared. But, if you’re not following it offline, it does some fantastic work not just in terms of standard information about interview tips, and I could see today, there’s stuff about career breaks, but there’s a whole section here about women in technology, for example, about how the tech sector is changing and really tuning in, again, to the way business is hiring very differently and what it’s like to be out there with particular kinds of degree subjects behind you looking for a job in today’s market. So, it is a very, very good resource for graduate job hunters.

James: I echo that one. They do have some really great content on there, and I know they have — I don’t know if they still do them, but they used to do the question and answer web chats. I know quite a few of the previous guests that have been on where you could have a particular topic and then you could ask in questions and they would answer them. But, yeah it’s a big site, and it’s got lots of information on there. So, good tip there, John. And the final question today. We’ve covered lots of different topics. But, John what one tip would you give listeners that they could implement today to help them on their job search?

John: I would say follow your curiosity. If you are leaving university this year and you’re really quite flexible about the kind of job that you might go for, the kind of organization you go for, the danger with that is that it can make you sound as if you’re undecided or you’ve got a very undifferentiated message. So, find something to get excited about by following your curiosity in terms of organizations that you find fascinating, products, technologies, brands, anything that really you can start to dig into with some enthusiasm, because that extra level of energy is what carries you through into the selection process.

James: Brilliant advice, and yeah, if you’re enthusiastic, it will take you many, many places. And if you’ve got two candidates in front of you – one’s excited and one’s not – you know who they’re going to pick. So, great advice there. John, thank you so much for appearing on the Graduate Job Podcast. What’s the best way that listeners can get in touch with you and the work that you do?

John: My website is fairly easy to find. If you just type in “John Lees” and the word “careers” into any search engine, it is www.JohnLeesCareers.com.

James: John, thank you so much for appearing on the Graduate Job Podcast.

John: Thank you for asking me.

James: Many thanks again to the brilliant John Lees, everytime he is on the show he brings careers gold. So many things I took out of that episode, from the confidence window and making best use of it, through to his CV tip of seeing if anything of the important things you say about yourself actually match what’s in the first part of you CV. Make sure you do check out the latest edition of John’s book How To Get a Job you Love, which you can find in the show notes at https://www.graduatejobpodcast.com/smart. Make sure you head there as I will also link to John’s other 3 episodes which are all just as good, if I do say so myself. Now no matter where you are on your jobsearch I have an episode that can help, I have 82 other episodes covering every aspect of getting a graduate job, so no matter what stage you are at, I have something for you.

And finally, one very special thing to tell you about. If you are thinking of applying for a graduate job then boy do I have something for you. I’m distilling down all my years of job search knowledge into one brilliant online course, cunningly call. ‘How to Get a Graduate Job’. This is going to tell you everything you need to do to get a graduate job, Now the course is still being worked, but if you want to be the first to find out about it and also to get it at a special discount never to be repeated price including some amazing special offers, head on over to https://www.graduatejobpodcast.com/course and leave your email. It’s a brilliant course which will take you through every step of getting a graduate job and it will save you years of frustrations and rejection, so head on over to https://www.graduatejobpodcast.com/course to find out more. That is everything from me, let me know if you liked the episode today. I hope you enjoyed it, but more importantly, I hope that you use it and apply it. See you next week.