Episode 19 – Secrets of a graduate recruiter with Matt Hearnden

May 29, 2015 Podcast

Welcome to the 19th episode of the Graduate Job Podcast.

This episode I speak with former graduate recruiter turned author and career coach Matt Hearnden. As a former graduate recruiter, Matt has been freed from the shackles of corporate life, and as such he is able now to spill the beans on what it’s really like to have to wade through thousands of online applications and conduct hundreds of telephone interviews and assessment centres. Matt doesn’t hold back and shares with us the secrets of exactly what you need to do to get that graduate job, including great advice on why you are probably getting rejected on the online application stage, and the simple tricks to get a yes from the telephone interview. If are thinking of applying to a large graduate scheme then this is a must-listen episode for you.

You can download the podcast to your computer or listen to it here on the blog. Additionally, you can subscribe via iTunes, Stitcher Radio or Spotify.

MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT:

  • The reasons you might be failing at the online application stage
  • What graduate recruiters are really looking for in group exercises
  • Top tips for impressing in a telephone interview
  • Why you need to think about your core values
  • How long you will wait to find out if you have the job
  • Whether to ask for an increase on a graduate starting salary

SELECTED LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

    • Check out the ‘How to Get a Graduate Job’ step-by-step online course at https://howtogetagraduatejob.com/
    • Don’t even think about applying for graduate jobs until you’ve read my free guide, ‘The 5 steps you must take before applying for graduate jobs’. Click here NOW. It will completely change the way you apply for jobs!
    • Would you like a free 30-minute video coaching call? Simply select a time that works here https://calendly.com/gradjob/ We can go over your CV, application, or anything that you are struggling with.
    • Assessment Day – One of the top providers of psychometric tests. Click HERE and support the show
    • Career Gym – Use code GJP to get 20% off all of their tests!
    • Job Test Prep – One of the top providers of psychometric tests. Click HERE and support the show
    • Matt’s book recommendation – Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less. Click on the image below to buy now on Amazon!

Transcript – Episode 19 – Secrets of a graduate recruiter with Matt Hearnden

James:  Hello, and welcome to the 19th edition of the Graduate Job Podcast.   I’m really pleased today to be speaking to Matt Hearnden. Matt is a former graduate recruiter who was working for one of the UK’s largest companies but who left it all behind to become a writer, author and a student and graduate coach. Now that Matt is no longer working for the man, we’re going to explore some of the secrets of graduate recruitment that aren’t normally revealed.

Matt, a very warm welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast.

Matt:     Hello, James. I loved that intro. That was cool. I think I might get people to introduce me wherever I go now because I enjoyed that a lot.

James:  So, I’ve given our listeners a very brief introduction, but before we plod on, would you like to introduce yourself in a little more detail and tell us how you became a student and a graduate coach and a writer.

Matt:     Absolutely, yes.   So, hello everyone. My name is Matt and I have, as James said, I’ve spent the last four years working at one of UK’s biggest companies in graduate recruitment and I’ve also worked in the graduate attraction arena; so, you know, how do we get the best grads that want to join the company; and also the development arena so when they get to the company, what do we do with them?   How do we make them grow? And you know, graduates certainly have an appetite to grow and to learn. So that’s been very interesting.

So, really, I wanted to go off and do my own thing; like I said a writer, author, student graduate coach for a couple of years now and my company offered volunteer redundancy recently so I thought, wow, that’s an amazing opportunity and you know, at the time my parents and other people in my life probably weren’t as excited as I was but to me this was just the best opportunity to finally start to pursue what I really wanted. And you know, I started to do some of this stuff while I was at my old job but now, all of a sudden, I’d have eight, nine, 10 hours more a day to go after that stuff and I’d have some money to tie me over while I could, hopefully, build it up.

I think, probably, the most important thing I can say about that decision — and we’ll talk about this, no doubt, in the rest of the interview as well — is that I wouldn’t have been able to make that decision if I didn’t know what I wanted. And I think the only reason I knew what I wanted is because I had found out, really found out — admitted fine line, maybe — but I started being who I really was. Really, I’ve done that over the last few years that I’ve been the real me and that’s another reason why I want to be able, and am, want to continue to be a coach for students and graduates, because I just think it’s so — you know, the thing I hear, there’s a couple of things I hear often and one is, oh, I don’t really like the job I’m doing; and the other one is, I don’t know what I want to do.   And I think those aren’t the problems. Those are the symptoms. And I think the problem is, lies within these, they don’t really know what’s important to them and that’s why they don’t know exactly what they want to do. So that’s one of my — and because I have found out what is important to me, hence why I’m able to make this decision I’ve made and loving the decision I’ve made and that’s why now I want to help other people doing that and that’s along the lines with the writing as well. They are all stories which are all metaphors which hopefully people can read and take something from and again, be who they are. So, I think that’s the kind of the motivation behind why I do what I’m doing.

James: Excellent, because it would be great to delve into exactly how you came to the realization of what is that you want to do because it’s something that we’ve covered in previous episodes, never the question of what do I do now that I’ve graduated and so much choice and where do I go. And we’ve also talked, our guests have talked about the importance of knowing what your values are and what you want to do as a person and how that can then help you with your job search. So, it would be great to cover that later on.

But I was thinking, maybe if we just start off and pick your brains as a former graduate recruiter, what exactly it was like to be on the other side of the fence and to get some insights from you about what makes a great application. So, starting off at the beginning, what was your role as a graduate recruiter and what stage would you really first come in contact with the candidates?

Matt:  So, when I was in the role of a recruiter, the first stage I’d come into contact was the application form. So, some, I guess, some companies you send your CV in but I think most these days it’s an application form and you have to answer questions such as why this company and what would you bring to the role and tell me what you know about this company. So, that would be the first place I’d come into contact with them.

James: So, when you first came across the applications, was it in your role to actually go through them? Because when we spoke last week to Brian Sinclair from Ernest and Young and he mentioned how they got 25,000 applications for their places and I was just, how do you begin to start going through 25,000 applications and putting them into the “yes” and “no” pile. What would you be looking for, initially, when an online application came across your path?

Matt: Yes, for me I would – So, I think it’s very easy to apply to loads of graduate schemes and be quite generic about them. So, let’s take the supermarket retailers, as an example. So, you know, you’ve got Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury’s, Morrison’s and the little one, Aldi. To be honest a lot of the applications I would see would be very generic. So, let’s say, oh, I want to work for a big retailer, or like an international retailer because I know I could learn a lot and I could grow and I could do this like — It’s just boring, like you know, so I’m here to tell you the truth that it’s just boring and more importantly, whether you care or not, that tells the employer that you don’t really care about working there because you’re just being generic. So, if you want to be, so for me the ones that stood out were the ones that were very specific. Because the first question is often, why this company? Whatever company it is, why do you want to work here?   Or, tell us about this company. It’s the same question essentially. I just see so many generic answers and I just think, well, they don’t really want to work here. They probably fired off a hundred different applications and I think — and I guess what frustrated me is it’s very easy to be specific. And when I say that, you have to put the effort into researching the company but that’s all you have to do. So, for example, if you just go into Google and go into the “news” tab and type in a company, you know, whatever company it is, but there’s going to be loads of articles about that company and there’s going to be loads of article about what’s going on currently, you know, what’s happened previously.

So, let’s take Tesco as an example. They’ve been in the news a lot lately for not perhaps all the best reasons but there’s all sorts you can pick out there. So, if someone is going to say to me, oh, I want to work at Tesco because they’re a big retailer and they’re international and you know, they’ve got 3,000 stores in the UK and the scale and all that stuff, like anyone can find that out in about 10 seconds and everyone probably knows that anyway because Tesco is such a big brand. So, find out about the other stuff. So, find out about the fact, you know, why did they pilot the new CFO in early. You know the 263 whatever it was, million pounds accountant scandal. The now 6.4 million loss and it’s all publicized but then let’s talk about that but then also talk about what opportunity that gives you. So yes, all of that stuff but then what does that actually mean? So, you could say, well, because all this stuff happens, what that means for me is I’m a graduate who loves a challenge and I can see that actually help to turn around one of the biggest businesses in the world, if not the, maybe, biggest businesses in the UK, that excites me. And then you’re being specific about it. And that is exactly the kind of answer that I’d look for.

So yes, you have to put some effort into researching it, but that’s essentially all you have to do and it just—to be honest, it baffles me how little I saw that. It was a lot of, a lot of them are very generic. So that’s why, you know, the more you can research, the more you can be specific, you will stand out. You will absolutely stand out and the only point of the application is to just get to the next stage and if people see that as the first thing they see, that primes them if nothing else to think, oh, this person is good and this person puts extra effort in and they care. They actually want to join this company. They don’t want to join another retailer. They want to join Tesco, or they want to join Asda or Morrison’s. So I think, yeah, if you’re specific you will stand out.

James:   That was definitely one of the things that was really easy to pick out when I saw applications was you can really easily see where people have just copied and pasted and just changed the name of, you know, I really want to work for X because you have excellent an development scheme and it’s a top place to work, and you think, oh, they’ve done — as you mentioned — they’ve got in their head that they wanted to apply to five or 10 companies and it’s been the easiest research you’ve done and you’ve just copied and pasted it and it just doesn’t really make them stand out, like you mentioned.

Matt:     Not at all and I think — sorry, just something else coming into my head, as always — either basically find people who work there through your friends or through maybe your parents or their friends or even just on LinkedIn, find people who work there and ask them about what’s going on. Or you find graduates who work there and ask them. So, if you look online and you see, oh, this place has a great development program, you know, speak to the graduates about it, what exactly do you do in the development program. You know, get a list of all the courses and you can even say, oh, these courses, whatever it is, my presentation skill was so influenced and skill was not really interested in those because, like how impressive would that be? If they’ve said, I’ve spoken to all these people and actually, they’ve told me that this is the great thing about the training and that’s what really excites me because I love to learn and I love to, you know — You know, so if you’re going to say like, I love to learn and grow, where’s the research behind it? Find more stuff out. Sorry, that just came into my head so I wanted to—

James:    It’s a really good point and again, it’s one that’s really easy to do. You know, if you go to your career service and they’ve got a list of alumni and where they are and which companies they work for, nine out of 10 times if you email them and go, hey, I’m from your university. I’m really interested, or I’ve got an interview with, you know, company X, could you spend 10 minutes chatting about it with me? They’ll say yes. Or if you get in touch with people on Twitter or LinkedIn, all these people will say yes. You just have to have the confidence to go out there and actually just ask them for their help.

Matt:     And you’ve got to decide what’s more important, being scared to ask them or getting what you want, because when you phrase the question like that, it’s a pretty simple answer, I think.

James:  Completely. And again, if when you’re having the interview or you’ve got the application and you get asked the question — which you will — why do you want to work here? You go, well, I spoke with Barry who’s been working for yourself for three years and he talked about the great things with X, Y, and Z, immediately you’re just going to be head and shoulders above everybody else who said, well, I looked in The Guardian book of top recruiters and you came in at number 42 which is great.

Matt:     Yeah, exactly because everyone knows that. Yeah, you’re exactly right, be specific.

James:  And how much of a spelling and grammar Nazi were you when it came to online applications? Was there any margin for error?

Matt:     Oh, boy. You know, as somebody who writes I do, you know, I’m pretty hard on that stuff. I’m not going to lie. I did try to not be as harsh as I probably would have been but again, I think for me it just shows that you could have easily checked that, like you could have easily pasted it into Word, Microsoft Word and you know, correct yourself. You could have easily got a friend to read over it or your parents or brother or sister, whatever, and I just — So, it depends on how good the answer is. If it was an amazing answer and there was like a couple of mistakes, maybe I think, okay, well, you know, I can maybe let that slide but I just think that really there is no excuse for that. There’s a lot of ways, like I said, Microsoft Word, gets someone to check it, there’s just a lot of ways you can get around that. So, I think, if you really care you probably would make sure that you’ve done a great job with that.

James:  I asked one of our previous guests, Sarah Stimson who looks after a really good PR internship scheme which gets thousands of applications for places and she said you know, if she finds one single punctuation mistake or a spelling mistake, it’s in the bin because it just shows that if you can’t be bothered to get it right for the application, then what’s it going to be like when you’re working. It’s just a symptom of laziness and lack of care.

Matt:     Yeah, that’s a good point, very good point.

James:  So, off the top of your head, any ideas how, from the number of applications that you get, how many people will get whittled away at the online application stage?

Matt:     Yeah, that’s a good question. I think I would say from when I was doing it, anywhere between 60 and 70 percent I would say,  maybe even more than that, to be honest; maybe 70 percent is more accurate, just because of that reason. Because — more because of the specific, being specific reason but I think I could probably count on both my hands, really, the exceptional ones I’ve seen and I’m often, like I said, I’m often surprised at how unspecific some of them are. I just think, it just baffles me, like I said. So, yeah, I think a lot of them fall out, they get binned from the process there which is a significant amount but like I said, I can count the exceptional ones, really, on my hand, I would say.

James:  A high percentage but as you really know, when you think that they’re going through to the next stage where it requires a lot of time and input from the company to do interviews, et cetera, you can understand why you’d get rid of people at this stage.

Matt:     Exactly and I think that’s important for the grads, the students and graduates listening to understand, is that people in this, especially in recruitment jobs anyway, but they rarely have the luxury of time. So, probably as soon as they can, as soon as they can feel like they can get rid of an application, they will and that’s not to de-motivate anyone, that’s just to say, well, if you put in a great application they will be happy. You know, they will think, oh, finally, look a good one. So, rather than de-motivate, let it spur you on and think, oh, actually, yeah. If I just do these things then I will have a great application. They will put me through to the next stage.

James:  So, what was the next stage after the online application?

Matt:     So, the next stage usually is online tests. So, you know, like the psychometric tests, numerical, verbal reasoning, maybe like a situational judgement test which is, you know, they give you a situation and you have to list there’s maybe like three or four or five options and you have to list in order, which ones you would do and which ones you wouldn’t.

James:  And what percentage do you think of people have cheated on the online tests?

Matt:     Yeah, that’s a great question. I really don’t know but what I can say is most, most companies I know, probably maybe all companies I know, don’t ask you to do them again.

James:  They don’t?

Matt:     So, it would be — yeah, they don’t.   So, it would be easy to get away with it and of course, I’m not saying you should do that but I am just saying that I think — So, I think, probably a greater percentage than we would like to think cheat on those tests.

James:  That’s interesting. Last week I spoke with Brian Sinclair and asked him the same question but not as honestly as that and he diplomatically said that they retest on the, if you get through to the assessment centre they make you do a retest.

Matt:     Right.

James:  Just, I think he described it, to make sure there weren’t any flukes or outliers. I know the previous company I worked for they would make you, they did the retest at the assessment centre and they looked for, it was surprising the number of people who would go from the top percentage quartile to suddenly being down at the bottom.

Matt:     Yeah. That is very interesting and I think that probably says it all, to be honest. I think, yeah, I think, so the companies I’ve worked for haven’t done any retest and really it’s just, I love and I don’t have necessarily the answer off the top of my head, but I would love to see there just be a different way to recruit people. Because I think ultimately it’s just a screen, it’s just a tool for screening people out because companies get so many applications, like Ernst and Young get 25,000. The company I worked for got similar amounts to that. So, it’s kind of just a way of thinking, oh, well, we just need to, we can just filter these people out and I think — I know some companies like Google and my friend got a job with Google recently and they don’t necessarily run any graduate programs as such. I know they do lots of internships but the way, he was recruited was just, he had five interviews with five different people. And obviously you can argue that would be very, take a lot of resource on the side of the company but maybe there’s a reason they’re one of the highest rated companies to work for in the world, if not the highest rated one. And I think, five different people interviewing you, you get a sense of who people are then rather than how good they are at math which doesn’t necessarily — which matters in some jobs but certainly not most jobs.

James:  And following the online testing, would it go through to a telephone interview or would it be face to face interview or Skype interview?

Matt:     Yeah, telephone interview.   I know some places do like video interviews now but yeah, the company I worked for did telephone interviews and I think a lot of places still do that as well.

James:  What would you be looking for at the telephone interview stage?

Matt:     I, so often it would be competency based interviews and what that means, for someone who doesn’t know who’s listening is, it means they’ll ask questions like, tell me about a time when you lead a team or tell me about a time you worked in a group or tell me about a time you showed resilience or, it’s all things like that. It’s all examples of behaviours that you’ve done or you’ve given and for me what I would be — I mean, I would certainly be looking for the person to be first of all, enthusiastic, you know and it’s okay to be a bit nervous I get it but harsh or not, the amount of enthusiasm you have and kind of passion you can sense in someone, it shows that they want the job. It shows that they care that this is going to go well. So I think — actually, what’s really interesting is often in the beginning of the conversation is very one-sided. So, I would have interviewed someone I heard the recruiters interviewing people and they would often be, oh — say I was in front of them – oh, hi, is that Matt? Are you ready for your telephone interview? And they’d be like, yeah. And it’s like, oh, how are you doing? And they’re like, oh, yeah, I’m good. Thanks. And it seems as if the people being interviewed, the students and the grads are scared to have that real conversation at the beginning but that’s going to work in your favour, to ask them how they are. Be oh, hey, how are you? How’s your day going? Like that’s totally okay. You know, I think what stops them is that they are, you know, fine if they’re nervous and you know about it and like I said, that’s not necessarily a bad thing but it’s okay to have a conversation. There’s still a person on the end of the line. It’s still going to be someone like me or someone like you or someone like them. So, I think that’s okay, first of all.

And I think again, what I’d be looking for is a clear passion for the company and you can show that. You know, in the application form is sometimes hard to get across because it’s just words on a screen and it’s not your voice or your face. But I think in a telephone interview is the first time they hear you and you know, you’ve got a real chance there to show how passionate you are about the company and again, how much research have you done about the company, have you been bothered to do extra research compared to your application form because all of a sudden you’ve got a chance to say more.   You know, in the application form it’s probably, you get a couple of hundred words which really is not much at all. So, all of a sudden now you’ve got time to say a lot more. So, how much extra research have you done.

And then one of the biggest things I’d be looking for which again people I think are afraid to admit is with the competency questions, they know, tell me about a time that you lead a team, for example, it’s okay, it’s totally okay for it to be an example that maybe didn’t go the way you wanted but that you learned from it. So, I think the ability to learn from things and be resilient about it and think, well and, actually the outcome wasn’t really what I wanted but oh, my God I learned so much and this is what I learned. That’s brilliant because a lot of the time, just in life generally, we mess up. We make mistakes. I certainly do. Let me just speak for me, I mess up. I make mistakes. I do things that I think oh, yeah, and then I learn from it and I think oh, that was messed up and I did that wrong but actually what I learned was this. I just think that’s extremely important and I’ve had telephone interviews before where when I’ve asked people what they’ve learned and they can’t articulate it and either because they’re not self aware or because they’re kind of scared to because they kind of think, oh, well, I don’t want to, I need to not appear vulnerable at all. I need to appear like I’ve got everything together and I’m strong in every single part of my life. We’re not. We’re all people. Again, so it’s okay to talk about those example and say, but what I learned is this. I have rejected people because they couldn’t articulate what they learned because how, companies recruit grads usually to be their future leaders, they’re senior managers or directors, CEO maybe and if you can’t learn, then that’s never going to happen, those people won’t get there. So, I have rejected people based on that and I know a lot of people have as well. So, I think that’s definitely one of the most important things I would certainly look for and I know, other people in the company and outside the company also would definitely look for.

James:  I found often with competency questions, if people had an idea of what the competency was going to be they’d come in with such pre-canned answers and almost you ask them about, say, a time you’ve worked in a team and they’re like, team, okay, my team answer. Okay. Di di di di, di di di di da and they don’t stop for breathe, just plod on straight through it and then if you try and ask a question around the side of it such as, what did you learn and it’s not part of their pre-canned answer, it can immediately throw them.

Matt:     It’s so true. Yeah, you’re so right and then you know, you don’t want to be thrown because that then will potentially throw you off for the rest of the interview. So, yeah, I think that’s a really good point as well about all these kinds of, these answers that you’ve planned. It’s okay to have examples, obviously, but you know I would say, if you’re going to have examples, make sure you know what you learned from that example because that question will be asked.

James: That’s a really good point. Also, to come back to what you said with telephone interviews generally, put yourself in the position of the recruiter thinking that they’ve probably been given a list of 10 people to ring up that day and to interview and if you’re the one of the 10 they speak to that’s excited, that wants to speak to them, that’s asking them questions, thats sounds really positive and wants to be there, then you’re going to stand out.

Matt:     Absolutely. And you know what, that’s such a great point because that day, you, as a student or graduate probably only have one telephone interview. The recruiter is probably going to have like 10. So, they want to have fun. They want to have a good conversation. So, it’s okay to — because like I said, no one else is probably going to do it so, it’s okay to be, oh, yeah. How are you doing? How many interviews have you had today? Oh, what’s— You know, be curious about them because I think for me, certainly I’ve been so bored on some of my telephone interviews and I’m like, oh, God, it’s really hard to listen. But then you get someone who it is like really enthusiastic and talks to you, it’s a good conversation to have and then rightly or wrongly, you feel good about that person.

James:  And moving on then from the telephone interview, was there a stage in-between the assessment centre or would it be straight through to the assessment centre?

Matt:     So, where I most recently worked, that was it. So, if you got through that then you got invited to an assessment centre but I think some companies might have a face-to-face interview before that as well. But I think most assessment centres include an interview now. So I would be, I think the assessment centre after the telephone interview probably would be the most common way.

James:  And speaking of the assessment centre itself, what key things, in your experience, do people struggle with, which aspects?

Matt:     I think nerves and it’s a shame because you know some people are great or you can see they’re great but their nerves are just totally getting in the way of their performance and I think, I know I said before it’s okay to be nervous but ultimately you don’t want to be feeling nervous all the time. So I think one of the best things that I would — This is what I would do now if I was going to an assessment centre. First of all, I would drive there the day before so I know where I was going and so I knew what I was doing, so I didn’t have to worry about that.   I would certainly, you know, if it starts at nine, I would get there at eight just so I knew I was there. So then that’s one less thing to worry about. But I think most importantly, when I was, when I met the other candidates and the other assessors, I would be intensely curious because asking questions is an amazing way to get over having nerves because then you don’t have to speak. You can just ask. There’s a thousand questions you could ask, you know, of the assessors and I used to be an assessor. So, it’s just people like me that assess people that are fun, hopefully, and are just normal people. I would certainly — there’s loads of questions you can ask them. Oh, how long have you worked for so and so? What do you like best about your job? What’s the most challenging thing about it?   You know, there’s all sorts of questions you can ask and I think that’s such a good way to get rid of nerves because as you realize they’re just people, you kind of thing, oh, well, you know, they’re just people and I think they always, they probably say assessments centres are your interview and as much as we’re interviewing you and I don’t know if anyone ever believes that but I think the more human you see everyone there, the more you realize it’s true and the more you think, well, yeah, I’ve chosen to come to this assessment centre but I might not work here. I might actually not like the people here. Or I might love the people here and definitely want to work here. I just think it helps you be better in that mind frame rather than just thinking, oh, my God, I’m on show and I’m being judged the whole time.  And also just quickly on that as long as, yes, you are being judged the whole time but you’re being judged the whole time no matter what.   So, if you’re trying to be someone you’re not, if you’re trying to impress rather than just being yourself, you’re still being judged and people still might not like that. So, I think that’s one of the best arguments I have for just being you.

James: That’s right. Different companies have different ways of looking at assessment centres.   I know where I worked you say this to student candidates and they wouldn’t believe you, but if there was an assessment centre, six people and all six of them were great, then you’d make six offers. Where you were working would that be the same, or did you, pre to assessment centre, did you have a maximum number of offers that could be made?

Matt:     Yeah, no, we didn’t.   It was the same as your company. So, yeah, if there was, like you said, if there was 10 people there and all 10 are fantastic, then yeah, we’re going to take them. And again, you know, we do say that at assessment centres but yeah I do think like no one believes you because I think oh, I’m in competition with so and so and I’m in competition with — You know, I know it’s very easy for maybe us to sit here and say but actually because we have done it, we do have some credibility. But you aren’t in competition. It’s just about how good you are, not in comparison to everyone else. As you say, if there was 10 people and all 10 of them are great, yeah, we’re going to hire them. Why wouldn’t we, you know?

James: I think that’s a subtle shift in mindset particularly when you’re in the group exercises, you’re working together as a group, because you would see candidates come in and almost you could see in their head that it was, you know, it was their chance for them to shine but they needed to make other people look, you know, look bad as opposed to people who went in with a collaborative mindset and were bringing other people into the conversation, asking other people questions, and just trying to solve it as a group, who would stand out for good reasons.

Matt:     Yeah, you’re so right. That is such a good point and the one thing that I would have loved to have seen more at assessments centres and the one thing I rarely saw was exactly that, was bringing other people into the conversation. So yes, everyone will make that point and things, but if someone is being quiet or they haven’t had a chance to speak yet, rarely did I see — For example, if it was me and you then I would be, oh, James, what do you think about that?   Or oh, James, you had a really good point about the last one, what did you think about this? Like assessors will be all over that. They will love that and the assessors of my company certainly did love that. Whenever we saw someone kind of saying, oh, Matt, what did you think? Oh, yeah, James, that’s a really good point.   How about, what did you think about this? That is amazing to see because that, really, that’s real leadership, not bullying your way to the front of the conversation.

James: And what made up the assessment centre? Apart from the group exercise, what else could people expect?

Matt:    So, there was once one interview and then there was a presentation in which they had about 45 minutes to prepare and then they did a 10 minute presentation to one of the assessors and then there was a question and answer, and then there was the group discussion. So, yeah, there are only actually a few exercises.

One of the great things about the assessment centres that we did was that for the interview we did something called a 3D CV and that meant that people could either bring in possessions they had or they could make stuff, and we had all sorts of just incredible ones. We had someone make their own food packaging label that described who they were. We had someone create a little delivery van with little boxes in the back, of their attributes.   I had someone who made a game and he got me to play it and I rolled the dice and wherever I’d land it would be like one of his achievements or a fun fact. And it is just an amazing way to get to know someone. And what was the point about that is, is if you’re asked to bring your CV to an assessment centre or to an interview, I’m not, maybe you bring the kind of traditional, if you want CV as well but how about bringing a 3D CV as well. That is going to make you stand out I mean they will be shocked. They will absolutely shocked by it. I guarantee it. So, I just thought of that and I just wanted to mention that as well.

James:  That sounds amazing. I mean, how much notice will people have to pull something like that together?

Matt:     So, it depends like because sometimes we’d be running an assessment centre, you know, on a Monday and the candidate wouldn’t find out, and the candidate would have got through a telephone interview on the Thursday or Friday, so they might only have the weekend to do it. But you know, I think one person once made the excuse that there’s wasn’t, like oh, I didn’t really have time to do it.   It’s a poor excuse.   So, some people have short and some people have longer, but at the end of the day it’s how important is it to you to do this. Whatever you want to do, I think, you could do it in a weekend basically if you dedicate enough of your time to it. But yeah, it was an amazing kind of move by the company to do that and it’s been an amazing success but it’s like how, I think it’s such a great idea. Like I would do that now.   I would honestly do that if I was ever have kind of another interview in that situation or like a, maybe like a pitch to a client or something like that, take something or make something. It brings it to life and it shows who you are more, maybe, than just a bit of paper.

James:  It’s a brilliant point and again, listen, a common theme throughout what we’ve talked about is going the extra mile and doing something to make yourself stand out whether it’s with how you research the company, whether it’s speaking to people who work at the company and this is just another logical step, is doing something creative for the company that you’re applying for. So, in retail, as you mentioned, with the food packaging label.   You know, if you’re working for a company making — I don’t know — shoes and you develop your own shoebox or whatever it is, just thinking and actually putting some creative thought into it and showing that you’ve taken the time, you’ve not just cut and pasted 10 different companies.

Matt:     Exactly. Yeah, it’s such a good point and it just, I think, again if they put themselves in the shoes of the employer, how impressed would they be that someone brought a 3D CV to their interview. I mean, who does that? No one does that. So, yeah.

James:  Question now for you is, I’d be interested to get your thought and I know when I’ve been on your side of it, both good and bad, what the outcome has been.   Following the assessment centre, how quickly did you let the people who got the job know and the people who didn’t get the job know?

Matt:     So, it would, so there would be no difference in terms of if you did or didn’t get a job. So, it would be the same amount of time. Am I making sense? And honestly it could vary from anything between a few days or like, maybe even a few weeks.   Usually it would be within a couple of weeks, most of the time but like we were saying before, recruiters are busy. Everyone’s got stuff to do.   It’s not the only thing on their plate. So, yeah, but there would be no difference in terms of if you did or didn’t get it. You’d still find out in the same amount of — We wouldn’t just like wait longer for one or the other.

James:  I guessed it would be that if you got the job you’d find out that day and if you didn’t it would be a couple of days later.

Matt:     Oh, okay. Yeah, no, we never tell anyone on the day actually and again, because I just think recruiters are so busy running other assessment centres and telephone interviews and they have crazy busy jobs. So, yeah.

James:  Before we move on to just explore about the leap you made from recruiting, one final question. How much scope is there, if any, for negotiating the salary for a graduate job?

Matt:     That is a great question. I think it would depend on a few things.   So, I think first of all, it would depend on — I think one of the things it would depend on is the amount of job offers you have. So, if you have been accepted to a couple of places and the salaries are different, it’s the kind of the old cliché, but it doesn’t hurt to ask. So if one of them is like 30 grand and one of them is 25, you could say, well, I’ve been offered this one which is 30. I do want to join you but, so is there anything you can do? And I think most places would probably say there is nothing we can do. However, I don’t know that for sure and I think there’s absolutely nothing to stop you from asking apart from being a bit scared to ask. Because I very much, even if you ask and they say no, they’re not going to like rescind your job offer. I think that would be crazy but it probably depends on the industry as well.

So, I’ve only ever worked in a couple of industries. Like, for example, I haven’t worked in like the investment banking industry or something like that and I don’t know whether it would be more negotiable there. Again it would be worth, maybe, speaking to people who’ve done it before, have been through it before and saying, do you think I could do that? Do you think I could negotiate? It’s a really great question. Yeah, I think it would be really great if someone did explore like that, like one of the students and graduates listening, it would be really great if they’d explore that and then let us know how they get on. That would be really interesting.

James:  It certainly would. So, let us know how you get on, listeners. Give us a tweet @gradjobpodcast and yeah, look forward on hearing how you got on.

So Matt, we talked just before we started the call and also at the beginning of the call about your movement from the world of recruiting to coaching and writing and you mentioned how you feel it’s a lot more now in line with what you really want to do. How did you make that jump and how did you come to the realization that you needed to make the move?

Matt:     So, for a long time I wondered about the question, who am I? And it really kind of circled around in my mind a lot and one of the things I knew I liked doing was helping people and I didn’t quite know in what capacity, but I knew I liked helping people, making people happy and things like that. You know, I decided to go, as we briefly talked about before this, on a coaching course to learn how to coach people, to learn to help them find their own solutions and actually, the biggest thing I learned on that course was that I needed help myself before I could help other people because ultimately I wasn’t being who I really was and I’d always kind of, there always been something in me that was kind of like, it almost felt like something was like missing and it was never, never necessarily a huge issue but it was kind of, it was getting bigger. I could feel it and I could feel like I really want to sort this out.   And so on that course, you know, the way the guy runs it is amazing, like I was saying before, but you learn how to coach people, yes, but you learn how to first of all coach yourself and you learn how to get out of your own way because really, that is the only way you can help other people get out of their way.

So, basically, once I, following that course I just, I was a lot more comfortable with who I was because I finally, I’d written down, literally written down what my values were, what was important to me and straight away when I did that I could see I’m not living by them and I wanted to. Like there was no obligation but I wanted to do that and so that led me to — and really, that’s how I got into the writing. I kind of wanted to, maybe, set up — this is a while back now — but I wanted to set up a business as like a coach or personal coach and through that I started to write articles because I wanted to get clients but then actually I started to really just enjoy writing and I would read like hundreds of articles a week. I was crazy. I would read like 10 at a time without thinking. And then I thought, well, why don’t I do this? Like, what’s stopping me from writing my own stuff? And as I did it more and more, I got hopefully better and better and I’ve gotten some website ones like Elite Daily, Thought Catalogue, Life Hack and I started doing it more and more and getting better and better and like I said, and recently it led me to when they brought up voluntary redundancy I knew, really I knew straight away that I was going to take it. I didn’t apply straight away and I chatted with my parents, my friends and stuff but really I was like, yeah, I’m going to do it. And the only reason I knew I could make that decision and take the leap, and what people see as a risk but I don’t see it that way. I just see it as I’m going to do what I love and what I really want to do and the only reason I was able to make that decision is because, what I said it at the beginning of the story, because I found out/admitted – fine line – who I was, who I really was and actually along with that, once I found out who I was I knew what I wanted to do. I knew what kind of life I wanted. Like all the other stuff is like above the surface but who am I? That’s in here and for me every single thing comes from that. So, every decision I make, every, you know, the paths I want to take, everything I write, it comes from me and I think I’m able to make those decisions and what other people see as a risk and what other people see as, oh, but how could he possibly make a decision like that? Well, I’ll tell you, it’s because I know who I am and that’s the most succinct way I can put it.

James:  When you’re consistent with your values and congruent with who you are across, you know, your job and how you feel and you interact with people, then things start to happen.

Matt:     Yeah. Absolutely. You know, even things like this. Like I would have never thought before that I’d be like able to go on a Podcast and talk about my experiences, and I’m loving it, James. I’m not going to lie. I’m really enjoying this. So, it just leads you down your own path and you start thinking about what does so and so want from me? What do my parents want from me? And I love my parents, don’t get me wrong. Let me make that clear but it’s my decision and I’m able to make the decision because I know what is important to me and actually, it’s really interesting because I’ve been working with a girl recently and we were talking about, what’s your list of what’s important to you and then we were taking, there’s — and she said happiness was at the top of her list. I was like, that’s not a bad thing to probably have at the top of your list and then all of a sudden she just goes, oh, my God. I know why I’m not happy, because I’m not doing this; because I’m in a job I don’t like; because I’m listening to my mom all the time. So that’s why it’s amazing because you do this list and then it’s like a diagnostic tool. You just think, oh, well, that’s at the top of my list and I’m not doing it. So, no wonder I’m not happy. It breaks it down and makes it logical and that was amazing to see, from me being a coach and doing it with someone. That was the most recent example anyway. That was amazing to see.

James:  So listeners, if you’ve got an itch, then it would be best to scratch it and see where it leads to.

Matt:     Oh, yeah. Definitely.

James:  And check out episode 6 with David Schindler, where he talks about the values in his life and how he had a job which wasn’t fundamentally fulfilling his values and the difficulties that he had as a result and also Episode 12, I think, with Jennifer Holloway, where she talks about her personal brand, just making sure that you’re consistent across your personal brand and how that will then lead you to do something that you’re more happy with than what you might currently be doing.

Matt:     I’m going to check those out as well.   That sounds good.

James:  Shifting gears slightly, as time is running away with us.

Matt:     Yes. Sorry about that.

James:  Before we begin to – no, no. Don’t apologize. Let’s now look at some quick fire insights from yourself. What book do you recommend listeners to read?

Matt:     So, I’m reading an amazing book at the moment. It is called Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less and essentially, pardon the pun, the message is basically everything, pretty much everything is unimportant. So what are the, what is truly important in our lives and how do we focus on that. It is an amazing book and it’s funny, it changes your mood. We’ve talked about this before, like you were saying, oh, if you’ve got more than one book recommendation, you know, go with that but in honour of the book, I’m currently going to recommend that and it is honestly a fantastic book and it’s really already changing the way I look — I only started reading it maybe like a couple of days ago — it’s started to change the way I look at things. It even talks about how we glorify and praise people who say, oh, I only sleep three hours a night but I still want more productive because he probably drinks 50 cans of Red Bull and it’s like, we can survive for less time — You know, we can survive longer without food and water than we can without sleep. So, sleep is important and for some reason it’s come to the stage where, oh, less sleep means you’re successful; or means you’re a better person and it’s just not true. So that is a myth that that dispels and it really helped me because I certainly used to think that way about sleep. And I was, oh, but if I sleep I could be getting more done but as soon as I started just, you know, since just sleeping really eight hours is what they say is the optimum, so it says in the book s as well, I’ve been a hundred times more productive. So, it’s a great book. I would 100 percent recommend it.

James:  Thank you for that. And links to everything that Matt discusses will be in the show notes. So, check out Graduate Job Podcast and you’ll be able to find a link to Essentialism.

Now, Matt, which internet resource do you recommend?

Matt:     I recommend Jamesaltucher.com. Again, we can put the link in the bio so we’ll spell it out, but he has an, a great interest and perspective on life and on many, many different things in life and he’s had many ups and downs in his life and some of it is just really inspirational. It really helped me through some things I’ve been going through and such as going out on my own and doing my own thing and making my own money and being my own boss, that sort of thing. But also, there’s a load of other stuff and I was thinking it has an extraordinary perspective on life and I think it’s entertaining and educational. So, I would definitely recommend that.

James:  Listen to his podcast and he’s an interesting character.

Matt:     Yeah. Yeah. He’s very interesting.

James:  I’ll delve into his website as well.

And finally, what one tip can listeners implement today to help on their job hunt?

Matt:     So, I think I am going to go with the, what’s important to me list. So, get out a piece of paper; on the top write “what’s important to me” and just write everything down. Don’t worry. You know, stop judging yourself. Write things down that you don’t really want to write down but you know are there because that is going to shape — once you are clear on what is important to you, those are your values, that’s who you are, you will know where to apply and kind of what job do you want and what kind of life you want and, you know, we’ve given other tips in the rest of this podcast. So, go back listen to that but that is the one thing that helps me the most, and with my life and as a result with my career choices. So, definitely that.

James:  Matt, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show today. Before we finish, what is the best way of people to get in touch with you and to read the content that you’re putting out?

Matt:     Yes. Yes. So, probably the best way is really for any kind of social media. So, through my Twitter or on Facebook. Probably just through Twitter or Facebook is best, or you can put my email, I guess in the show notes as well. But really any of those ways, wherever one’s comfortable with and yeah, you know, especially with the student/graduate coach stuff. If any of this kind of resonated, then maybe it’s time to do something about it and get in touch. So, hopefully people will watch.   I’d love that.

James:  Excellent. Matt, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show. Many thanks for your time today.

Matt:     Thanks a lot, man. It’s been great and I’ll talk to you soon.

James:

Many thanks again to Matt. Longer episode than normal but hope that you enjoyed it and got lots of value from it. Not often do you get the chance to hear such honest answers from the otherside of the recruitment fence. The first takeaway for me, and its an important one, is the need to be specific. As Matt said, 70% of applicants are whittled away at the online application stage, and aside from basics such as spelling mistakes, one of the key reasons is that people aren’t specific enough in their answers. I know it takes time to do these applications, and that’s the point. It’s designed to separate those that can be bothered from those that can’t. You can spot an application which is cut and pasted a mile away and those end up straight in the bin. If you find your getting rejected at the online application stage, a lack of specifics about why you want to work there could be one of the reasons. If you don’t have a reason then find one. Speak to a current grads, people who’ve done business with them, anything, but be specific and have a reason.

The second takeaway is to put yourself in the recruiters shoes, at all stages of the process, from online application to telephone interview. They want you to be a good candidate and to put you through, If you’re interviewing with them at the end of the day, realise that you’re at the end of the list, as Matt said, be positive, be fun, ask them questions. be yourself. Think about what it is that they want at each stage of the process and give it to them. Make it an enjoyable experience for both you and thus an easy decision for them to put you through.

My final point is one Matt’s willingness to assess his values (regular listeners know that we’ve covered them a few times before on earlier episodes), and be honest with himself about what is important to him, and what he wants to be doing with his life. Look around the people you know and work with and you’ll probably see that that honesty is all too rare. Write down your 5 core values, and look at whether you current job is ticking them off. If not you might need to ask yourself some difficult questions. Finally if this talk of going out alone and working for your self, has piqued your interest, make sure you listen next week when I’m speaking to motivational speaker Brad Burton and we cover the topic of starting your own business.

Right that is me done. For a full transcript of everything that we’ve discussed and all the links check out the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/secrets

Do get in touch with us on Twitter @gradjobpodcast, and if you’ve enjoyed what Matt had to say tweet him @M_Hearnden. If you’ve enjoyed the show please leave a review on ITunes or Stitcher radio, as I say every week it’s the best way other than sharing us with your friends to show appreciation for the podcast and it helps massively in the ranking on iTunes. Also if you’ve not already subscribed via Itunes or Stitcher radio, you need to sort that out, it’s the easiest way to get each episode delivered to you for free and to make sure that you don’t miss a thing. Don’t miss next week when I speak with the UK’s number 1 motivational speaker Brad Burton, although I warn you now, it does contain some fruity language. Finally, I hope you enjoyed the episode today, but more importantly I hope you use it and apply it. See you next week.