Episode 23 – How to network, with Stefan Thomas

June 29, 2015 Podcast

Welcome to the 23rd episode of the Graduate Job Podcast.

This week I speak with Stefan Thomas, author of Business Networking for Dummies, and all-round expert on networking. We explore how as a student or recent graduate you can start to network effectively, how and why you should make the first move, and why you need to move out of your comfort zone into your adventure zone. If you think networking is just something other people need to do, or if your networking only currently extends as far as having a LinkedIn profile, then this episode is for you.

You can download the podcast to your computer or listen to it here on the blog. Additionally, you can subscribe via iTunes, Stitcher Radio or Spotify.

MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT:

  • What is networking and why it is important
  • How you network as a student / recent graduate
  • How to make the first move in a networking situation
  • Why you should move into your “adventure zone”
  • The networking tip that will allow you to meet key decision makers in your target industry

SELECTED LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

Transcript – Episode 23 – How to network, with Stefan Thomas

James:  Welcome back everyone to the Graduate Job Podcast, with your host James Curran. The Graduate Job Podcast is your weekly home for all things related to helping you on your journey to finding that amazing job. Each week I bring together the best minds in the industry, speaking to leading authors, entrepreneurs, coaches and bloggers who bring decades of experience into a byte size weekly 30 minute show. Put simply, this is the show I wish I had a decade ago when I graduated.

This week I speak with Stefan Thomas, author of Business Networking For Dummies, and all-round expert on networking. We explore how as a student or recent graduate you can start to network effectively, how and why you should make the first move, and why you need to move out of your comfort zone into your adventure zone. If you think networking is just something other people need to do, or if your networking only currently extends as far as having a LinkedIn profile, then this episode is for you. As always, all links we discuss and a full transcript are available in the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/networking. But without further ado, let’s crack on with episode 23.

James:  A very warm welcome today to Stefan Thomas, bestselling author of Business Networking For Dummies, prolific public speaker and all around networking expert.

Stefan, a very warm welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast.

Stefan: Well, that’s the best build-up I’ve had all week.   What a way to start my Friday morning. Thank you. Thank you. It’s lovely of you to have me.

James:  You’re very welcome. And before we jump into our topic today of networking, would you like to tell us a little bit more about what it is that you do and how you became a networking expert?

Stefan: Yeah. Well, my name is Stefan. Currently I’m best known as being the author of Business Networking For Dummies, I speak all over the place on the subject of networking: how to network if you’re a micro business; how to network if you’re an SME; how to network if you’re in corporate employment; how to network if you’re a graduate.

I was an estate agent for 20 years. When I left school at age 18 I went straight into estate agency. That’s what I did for 20 years of my life up until 2007 and in 2007 I had a bit of a life changing moment, really, or certainly a massive change of direction and became self employed and starting going networking. I’d done a little bit of networking before but sort of played at it. But when I was self employed I started going to networking events around where I live, in Oxfordshire, which is where the rather odd accent comes from as well, and having treated it as a sort of medium or long term thing when I was an estate agent, all of a sudden when I was self employed I had to make it work. And then I did make it work.

And six years or so later the publishers of the Dummies series of books — to cut a very long story short — they said, do you fancy writing the book for us? So, I did that. That was published exactly a year ago as we record this podcast, and I’ve just had a conversation with the publishers yesterday and it looks like we’re going to be writing another book which will be done and published early next year and will actually focus more on networking in the corporate world which may be really, really appropriate to your listeners as well.

James:  Super. Congratulations.

Stefan:   Thank you. It’s been a good week.

James: So, today we’re going to explore the topic of networking from the perspective of students and recent graduates. So, starting at the very beginning, what is networking and why is it important at the beginning of your career?

Stefan: Networking is something that we all do naturally and something that I guess troubles me a little bit is that when we go into the world of work, this thing that we’ve done throughout our school lives, we’ve gathered our collection of friends and people around us, we’ve done it throughout our university life as well, and then all of a sudden we go to work and you’re told by people like me now, that you have to network but it sounds as if it’s something scary because all of a sudden it’s something which has got a label on it, but it’s actually just doing what you’ve always done. It’s putting supporting groups of people around you.   It may be being done with a little bit more of a plan and a strategy once you’re employed or working for yourself because you may be looking to put groups of people around you who may be useful to you in the future.

In its really simplest form and just before you started recording we talked about the fact that my son is studying music. A group of my son and his friends were asked to put on a gig recently and they were asked at very short notice and asked to supply everything and the main contact then, he called my son, he called someone else, he called these other people who he had known from college who had different skills — whether those skills were rigging a stage, running the sound desk, running the decks on the night — but when we got talking in the car he realized that actually what he had done is made really, really sensible use of the network he had already built and all of a sudden putting it together in a work capacity, in a meaningful capacity. All that networking is, is really being aware of and then trying to grow the number of people you are in warm contact with, and then at some point in the future that may be really, really useful to you in your career.

James:  When you put it like that it makes it a lot more, easier to get your head around and less threatening than thinking about it as more suited to golf clubs and funny handshakes and secret societies and networking, with those connotations.



Stefan: It does and I think that’s, I think that’s maybe why it scares people, because it’s something which we’ve always done but also because it’s that thing which our parents told us not to do, because our parents told us not to talk to strangers, and then when we go into the work environment it’s given this big label of networking which does make you think that you have to go onto a golf — I’ve never played golf in my life — golf course, that’s the right expression, that you have to go onto the golf course of you have to go into a big room full of people. And I do go into big rooms full of people,  I do go to networking events but in its simplest form it’s nothing like that. It’s just doing what you’ve always done anyway.

James:  So, as a current student or maybe I’ve just recently graduated and I might feel that my network, or the number of people that I know who might be able to help me in my job hunt is quite small. How then can I begin to broaden the number of people that I know and to make contact with different people?

Stefan: There are loads of strategies. I think one of the simplest things that people should do, particularly graduates but also one of the most powerful things that they should do and absolutely something that they must do is get themselves on LinkedIn. Get an account, register on LinkedIn. Make sure that what they start to build up on LinkedIn is their virtual CV. So, any of the skills they can put in their profile which is all very, very searchable; any work experience they can put in their profile; any white papers which they may have worked on they can put on their profile. Starting on LinkedIn and actually getting yourself and account and profile on LinkedIn is an absolutely must, particularly if you’re going to move around in the corporate world. You can take strategies a little bit further. You can then start to search for the people that you want to be connected to on LinkedIn and if you’ve got the right sort of LinkedIn account, send those people a connection request and there’s various ways you can make sure you can connect with them anyway by being in the same groups as them and that sort of thing. So, LinkedIn is really, really powerful and everyone should have a LinkedIn profile as part of their shop front.

The other thing which I think that graduates really should do is go along to events, seminars, conventions which are appropriate for the career path which they’ve chosen. For two reasons: A, you’ll meet a lot of people who are at various levels in the career or profession you’ve chosen but also if you’ve been at the same convention as them, you’ve got the immediate advantage that you’ve got something in common with that person. So, you’ve then got an excuse or a reason to make contact with that person after the event. Hey, we met at such and such expo. LinkedIn in the virtual world is vital and also going out and meeting people with whom you’ve already got something slightly in common, that’s also a brilliant way to start your networking.

James:  Going to conventions and events is a brilliant idea and one you mentioned where you can just get to meet people that you wouldn’t normally come across. In that situation, how would you recommend people making their first move?   I can imagine it’s daunting. So, if you go to one of these events or convention and there’s a stall of a company you want to work for or want to approach, how would you recommend people making that first approach to them?

Stefan: There’s a couple of ways. One of the things which is really, really useful about all of these events is, I’ve just said, it gives you something in common with someone. So, with you being to see the same speaker, if you were sat next to someone watching a particular speaker or a particular presentation, there is no problem with simply turning to the person beside you and saying, so, what did you think of that? And hey, any chance we can swap contact details? If there’s a particular firm or company that you want to work for, it does need to be a bit more of the – gosh, I won’t use the expression I was going to use — a bit more of the gutsy approach. I think that would be the politest way to say it. You simply need to pop up at the stall, explain who you are and what your interest is and ask if you can have the contact details of the person you should contact. It does take a little bit of guts. It’s not going to work 100 percent of the time but it’s making those initial contacts because generally, people want to help other people. So, if you go up with enormous explanation of who you are, generally people will want to help you out and will give you what you’re looking for.

James: I liked your comment in the book about not thinking as moving out of your comfort zone but thinking of moving into your adventure zone.

Stefan: I really wish I could take credit for that. I think that was Jim Rohn originally who said that but it was passed onto me by a man called Magic a few years ago. That’s his actual name and he talked about the fact that babies and developing children never feel if they walk that’s really getting out of their comfort zone so let’s not do it. They look at everything that they can’t do as something really exciting that they want to do, and you’ll remember that from your school days because you looked at the things that the bigger kids could do and wished that you could do them. And then something happens to us, I think, as we become adults and instead of being excited about the things that we can’t do, we get a bit scared about the things that we can’t do. And I think that one comment really helped me to turn that around.

James:  Yeah, I love the analogy of children. It’s one that when you think about it like that it certainly completely changes the way that you think about doing things, while trying to do things that you’ve not done before.

Stefan: Yes, absolutely.

James:  And confidence is a big factor of networking, generally, whether it’s reaching out to people on LinkedIn or on Twitter or face to face at events. What tips would you suggest for people who find that they get nerves that hold them back from making that initial contact?

Stefan: Social media gives us a whole lot of ways where we can actually completely bypass those nerves and my experience in networking was that I was the most nervous networker when I started. A little secret about me, I went to a networking event that I’d never been to before yesterday and I do still get those nerves. I just accept now that it’s really important to what I do to be out there and so I’ve learned lots of ways to deal with those nerves.

But getting back to social media, if you’ve connected with someone at an event or convention or even if you’ve just found someone that you want to connect with, very often they will have published their own stuff on LinkedIn, they may be talking about their interests on Twitter or Facebook. I think Facebook is a massively rising tool for professional networking as well. A really easy way to break the ice with someone is to get on to their turf. So, comment on something that they’ve published or respond to something which they’ve put on Twitter or Facebook. You’re moving onto their turf then. You’re not saying, hey, hey, hey, look at me. You’re showing interest in something that they’ve done and rather than having to feel like you’re starting a conversation, the great thing about social media is that you can join in with the conversation.   So, you actually sort of don’t need to deal with your nerves. You’re joining in with someone else’s conversation.

In real life, a whole lot of, I think, how we deal with nerves is just how we choose to project them and how we choose to look as we approach people, for example. And a lot of the times it is, I’m afraid, just the case of taking a deep breath and being prepared to start the conversation and going back to what I said, most people in life are incredibly supportive and once the conversation is going, you will look back and realize that things flowed a lot better than you expected them to. If anyone looks at any of the opportunities that they’ve had in life, that first time walking into college, that first time walking into a new school, all of that stuff was scary but all of the stuff that has happened from it, the friends that we’ve made, the stuff that we’ve learned, the relationship with professionals at universities, all of that stuff did start with one, probably, awkward original conversation and it’s, I think it’s that for which I hold onto a lot. Every big opportunity which I’ve had has started with a little conversation somewhere no matter how awkward that conversation was the first time around.

James: Definitely and I love your tip, as you mentioned, about commenting on other people’s post on social media by on Twitter, that’s a really good way just to get that initial engagement with people. If they post an article, even just to retweet it or favourite it or reply saying how much you enjoyed it or just adding a little comment and then retweeting it. It certainly gets you under people’s radars and opens up them to, opens up the possibility then to be able to speak to them.

Stefan: Real life anecdote from my point of view which is very relevant this year, I’m speaking at an event in Edinburgh called The Content Marketing Academy. That’s in September and I’m being paid for that. I went to see Gary Vaynerchuk. He’s a speaker who I respect a lot. I went to see him December 2013. The day after I’d been to see Gary Vaynerchuk speak, I actively searched for people who were blogging about the same seminar that I’ve been to. I found a guy called Scot. He was blogging about the Gary Vaynerchuk seminar. I wrote a comment on his blog to say, hey, that really sums it up for me and actually you’ve saved me the trouble of making a load of notes about it. Scott and I got in touch with each other afterwards and six or seven months later Scott said, you should meet my friend Chris. He’s running this thing called, The Content Market Academy and they’re looking for a speaker on networking.   That opportunity came from me going and commenting on someone else’s blog and I’ve got many more examples like that but this was, Scott Torrence was someone who I didn’t know before I commented on his blog about the Gary Vaynerchuk event.

James:  That’s a really good example and I’m speaking to Stefan today, after I spoke with Brad Burton who recommended Stefan to me in and put us in touch. So, it’s one thing leads to another which leads to another and you’re never sure where it’s going to end up.

Stefan: No, you’re not and that’s the, I had forgotten that little link actually, but all of these things when you trace back where any of your relationships started, they probably did start with an odd quick conversation somewhere or either jumping in on someone else’s conversation which is what I did with Scott Torrence and Brad was very keen to, because Brad is that sort of guy, he brought me into the conversation he was having with you because he knew that I could add value to the podcast which was fab.

James:  You talked about meeting people face to face. How important is body language when you initially make that contact, when networking?

Stefan: I’m going to say something which body language experts may hate me for. I really, really don’t want your listeners to worry too much about their body language. Body language does play an important part but what also plays an important part is the amount of things you’re trying to keep in your head when you’re about to meet someone for the first time and whilst I speak from the stage — so I’m very careful of my body language on stage, I’m very aware of what I’m doing on stage — however I think there is an honestly about people that you really, really don’t need to stress too much about your body language. There are a couple of things which are obvious ones. Don’t approach someone with your arms folded. It looks like you’re being defensive and it makes you feel defensive, and do remember to smile as you’re approaching people. I’m now getting interviewed quite a lot on video which is really flattering but one of the first things that I noticed when I first did a proper TV studio was that I was so nervous that I forgot to smile all the way through.   Two things about it: A, it didn’t really matter but secondly, it does remind me now that in situations where I’m nervous, I make a conscious effort to smile and just do try keep that little think in your head, but don’t stress about the body language thing. It is sort of important but you’ve got an awful lot to keep in your head when you’re meeting someone.



James: That’s very true and I love the, I made a note now to ask you about the top tip for smiling. That was one that stuck in my head from the book and it’s one that when I started the podcast I had a little post-it note attached to my laptop with “smile” written on it because it does help just with how it comes across, even if you’re just recording audio. If you’re smiling, it certainly comes across.

Stefan: It does and it makes a different too to how your voice sounds, how energized you sound and also if you’re going up to someone, it does make it look — make it look, that sounds as if it’s something false — but it does make sure that people know that you are pleased to meet them rather than looking absolutely terrified of meeting them.

James: Completely agree and just changing topic slightly, so imagine that we’ve secured the jobs of our dreams. How can people then begin to network work without it coming across as negative, without it coming across in a negative connotation?

Stefan: LinkedIn is still really, really important here. People should make sure that they’re connected with other people in the same organization as them and people at every level, as well. It’s really worth being connected to those people. LinkedIn makes it easy for you to connect with people who work in the same organization as you anyway. If you’re doing stuff, if you’re involved in particulars projects, then it’s worthwhile keeping your LinkedIn profile up to date with the stuff that you’re doing because what that very subtly does but in a positive way is it keeps you in front of the other people that you’re connected to on LinkedIn because they will get on their timeline updates as to what you’re up to. So, it starts to show how your career develops and so on and so forth.

The other thing which is terribly important as well, when you’re doing conventions or expos or whatever you’re doing in the course of your work, making sure that you do, in the way I’ve suggested earlier, just start talking to other people but then also try to exchange contact details so you can just genuinely keep in touch with them over time as well. There is nothing negative about that at all. It’s a very positive and a very sensible thing to do because you never know when those people might need your skills in the future. They may have been impressed with you at first and if you give them an opportunity to keep in touch with you, then that could be really useful to you in the future. But also in terms of your skills and your knowledge of your professional career, if you’re reading other people’s stuff on LinkedIn which, of course, I suggest that you do because then you can comment on it and so on, but if you’re reading other people’s stuff you are as well keeping up to date on what is going on in your industry or profession.

James:  So, having met people whether at a graduate job fair or at one of the milkround events, is there, thinking about following up, what’s the best time period to follow up with people and is there a time period where maybe you’ve left it too late and you think, oh, well, I should really get in touch with them but are they going to remember me? It was a month or two ago. Would you still recommend getting in touch in that situation or is there a time period where you’ve got to do it between?

Stefan: I would recommend getting in touch with people immediately while it’s still in the forefront of their mind and I would get in touch with them on multiple levels as well, a short and polite email reminding people that you met and who you are along with your contact details, plus go and search them out and connect with them on LinkedIn and Twitter as well. Google+ potentially, if Google+ is relevant to your industry as well, but connect with them on multiple levels. Send an email off to them and make connections with them on social media as well. In the nicest possible way, make it difficult for people to forget who you are.   If you have left it a couple of months, I actually wouldn’t bother anymore and that’s why I was careful with my language just now. I would recommend that you do it as soon as possible after the event so that it’s still fresh in people’s minds.

James:  That’s good advice. And I really like, in your book you talked about how you should look through your LinkedIn contacts and also your Facebook contacts and think about which ones you should just give a phone call to and I was thinking about my own personal situation and I think I’ve got nearly 500 people connected to on LinkedIn and how many I’d feel comfortable just picking up the phone and speaking to and it wasn’t very many.

Stefan: No, and I think that makes it an interesting exercise in and of itself. There is something lovely about just talking to people on the phone actually and people are often surprised in a nice way to hear from people because everyone hides behind email in 2015 and it’s the people who don’t hide behind email that tend to win out. In the micro business world, which is honestly where most of my experience is, then possibly people are more open to receiving complete phonecalls from apparent randoms.   I think in the micro business world you do value every single connection. We’re very attuned to that for all of us in the UK to 4.2 million of us who run small businesses. In the graduate world, yes, I accept that that may be a little bit different but what you said was, there were very few of them. So actually, there are some people who you would be comfortable to pick up the phone. Actually doing that every so often just to keep in touch with people has no down side at all because it does maintain and slightly elevate the warm connection that you’re keeping going over social.

James: That’s a good point and it’s certainly one for helping me get into my adventure zone as well.

Stefan: Yeah, absolutely and that’s something that’s— Picking up the phone to people that we don’t know is, I think, something that most people in, certainly most people in the UK are scared of. The people who aren’t scared of it tend to make a lot of money because they teach other people how to do it. But it is, nevertheless, all of these opportunities that you’ve had in life have come from a little conversation somewhere and actually started — you and I spoke last week or whenever it was for the first time and actually starting that conversation for the first time has lead to us doing this today and now we’re just chatting way. So, it doesn’t take very long for the conversation to become very fluid.

James: Shifting gears slightly, would you recommend that job seeking graduates and students go to more formal networking events, whether through companies such as 4Networking or local chambers of commerce, as a means to put themselves in front of business and to find roles?

Stefan: It’s not just, it’s not just the networking in its pure sense, the value that people will get from that. I was speaking at the business start-up show in London five or six weeks ago now. It’s a two day event at eXcel, really interesting. There were quite a lot of people who were about to graduate within the audience of both mine and actually Brad Burton’s seminars and presentations. And it’s not just the connections that you make at the events but it’s the, I guess, some of the exposure to the business world as well, some of the education that you get at the event. I’m really flattered that some of the students who connected with me and took the time to come up and say hello to me at the event, have now connected to me on LinkedIn and having made that physical connection with them, having met them in real life, I am now really genuinely interested to see where their careers go. I’ve also spoken at a few universities, connected with those guys on LinkedIn as well.   I’m now genuinely interested to see where their careers go. And actually, it’s a slightly intangible thing but no harm can come from someone else just paying bit of attention to their career because you just never know where I, or one of my connections, may need desk skills in the future.

James: And also, getting into these events will just help your, you know, your general public speaking skills and interpersonal skills and having the confidence to go up and speak to people that you don’t know.

Stefan: Yeah. I mean, until very recently I had a role in for networking alongside Brad Burton and Brad and I worked together. A student approached us directly at an event. It was a business event in London and his name was Dave and we ended up hiring Dave for a period, before he went off to university again, we ended up hiring him and paying him to do some work. That was because he had the guts to actually come up and say to us, I think what he actually said was, I think you’re Brad Burton and Brad said yes. And Dave said, hey, I’m really excited about what you’re doing for networking. Could we have a chat sometime? And we thought, what a ballsy approach and as a result Dave got some paid work and not only did he get some paid work but we’re still in touch with him now and following his career with interest.

James:  So, there you go our listeners. If you don’t ask, you don’t get. So, push yourself out into your adventure zone and go make things happen.

Stefan: Brad and I at the time were lying on the ground at the 02 in London taking a photograph of a pigeon because we thought it would be hilarious.

James:  That does sound hilarious.

Stefan: So maybe, maybe our body language was such that Dave felt that he could just ball up and talk to us.

James: Well, time is running away with us, Stefan. So, let’s move on to the quick fire questions I ask each guest. So, firstly, what one book would you recommend our listeners read?

Stefan: How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.   Everyone in the world should read that book. It is the best book on social media which was ever published in 1937 but all of the lessons in that book, I think everyone should read, whether they’re going into business; whether they’re going into corporate; whether they stayed in academia. It’s a really, really sensible thing to read.

James: I’d echo that. The term “a classic” just doesn’t do it justice.

Stefan: Yeah. No, absolutely.

James:  What one tip would you recommend that listeners can implement today in their job search?

Stefan: Make sure that they’re registered on LinkedIn. If they’re already registered, go and update their profile today.

James:  Super. And what one website would you recommend that they visit?

Stefan: I think every graduate, and we’ve talked about it so much during the course of this interview, should go and register themselves on LinkedIn. So, we probably covered in another question here as well, but people should spend more time on LinkedIn. There is loads of great articles on LinkedIn all of the time that people should read and comment on. And if people get bored with LinkedIn, go and look at the Daily Mash. It’s the funniest newspaper in England.

James:  And Stefan, what’s the best way for people to get in touch with you and to find out more about your work?

Stefan: Contact me on LinkedIn. Stefan Thomas; go and search for me. I am on Twitter as @noredbraces; on Instagram and @noredbraces on Periscope, on Facebook, on Google+. Go and search noredbraces and you’ll find me.

James:  And links to Stefan and all his social media footprint can be found on the website at www.graduatejobpodcast.com\networking.

Stefan, it’s been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show today. Thank you for your time.

Stefan: Thanks very much for inviting me.

James: My thanks again to Stefan for his insights there. Several key things stood out for me. The first, and I won’t labour it as we discussed it a lot, but LinkedIn. Not only make sure you have a profile, but have a good up to date one. It is your shop front to the world, so listen to episode 17 with Mark Williams on how to use linked in your job search. It contains a wealth of information to get your profile up to spec and tips on how to connect effectively with employers.

The second key piece for me was Stefan’s advice to attend seminars and conferences for the industry that you are interested in. You will have the chance to meet the movers and shakers in the flesh, but also as he said it will give you an excuse to chat to them whether online or in person about the content on display. Often conferences /seminars have vastly reduced entry prices for students/graduates, so make sure you check them out for your specific area of focus.

Finally, I loved Stefan’s simply about just having the kahunas to speak to people in the first place. Embrace your inner child and that sense of adventure and make your move. Don’t hide behind email as he mentioned and get in touch in person or over the phone. All opportunities come from making that initial first step and you never know where it will lead.

So there you go, episode 23 on Networking all done. Begin your networking straight away and if you’ve enjoyed the show let me and Stefan know on twitter @Noredbraces and @Gradjobpodcast respectively. If you’ve enjoyed the show please leave a review on Itunes or Stitcher radio, As I say every week it’s the best way other than sharing us with your friends to show appreciation for the podcast and it helps massively in the ranking on itunes. Join us next week when I speak to author and career coach Corinne Mills, its one you’re not going to want to miss. I hope you enjoyed the episode today, but more importantly I hope you use it and apply it. See you next week.

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