Episode 81 – How to find a graduate job that fits, with Scott Barlow

February 4, 2019 Podcast

Hello and welcome to the 81st episode of the Graduate Job Podcast, and I’ve got a special guest for you today, career expert and fellow podcast host, Scott Barlow. In this episode we delve into the topic of finding a graduate job that is going to fit you like a glove. We explore what will make you happy at work, and equally importantly what is going to make you unhappy and a few brilliant experiments, such as the ‘social Goldilocks’ experiment, so that you can to discover this before you start working there. We explore Scott’s story of how suffering from anxiety attacks at work at the age of just 23 led him to craft a career that he truly enjoys, and he gives you brilliant tips to allow you to do the same. Scott shares some insightful questions that you need to be asking yourself so you can discover that sweet spot between what you enjoy doing and what you are good at, which is going to help ensure you are happy at work. No matter where you are in your jobsearch, still applying, or maybe in a job which isn’t rocking your world, this is an episode which you aren’t going to want to miss. Now the only link you need to remember form today is graduatejobpodcast.com/fit, as that has all of the links to everything which we discuss and a full transcript which you can download, so make sure you head on over there.

And don’t forget to check out today’s sponsor who are our friends over at CareerGym.com. Career Gym is the number one place for you to undertake all of your psychometric tests which you will face when you apply for a graduate job. No matter what graduate job you apply for you’re going to have to face some type of verbal reasoning, situational judgment, and working style tests. You can practice these at CareerGym.com. Use code GJP to get 20% off all of their tests!

MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT:

  • How to find a graduate job that fits
  • Questions you need to ask yourself before you apply for a graduate job
  • Signs to look out for that will tell you you need to change jobs
  • Brilliant jobsearch experiments which will help you to decide what is the right job for you
  • Why you need to be looking for the sweet spot between what you enjoy and what you are good at
  • How to analyse your previous work experience for hidden clues about what will make you happy at work

Don’t forget, also make sure you check out check out http://www.graduatejobpodcast.com/subscribe which links to how to subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, and by email. So something for everyone there.

SELECTED LINKS INCLUDE:

  • Assessment Day – One of the top providers of psychometric tests. Click HERE and support the show
  • Career Gym – Use code GJP to get 20% off all of their tests!
  • Job Test Prep – One of the top providers of psychometric tests. Click HERE and support the show

Transcript- Episode 81 – How to find a graduate job that fits, with Scott Barlow

Announcer: Welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, your home for weekly information and inspiration to help you get the graduate job of your dreams.

James: Hello and welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, with your host James Curran. The Graduate Job Podcast is your home for all things related to helping you on your journey to finding that amazing job. Each episode I bring together the best minds in the industry, speaking to leading authors, entrepreneurs, coaches and bloggers who bring decades of experience into a byte size weekly 30 minute-ish show. Put simply, this is the show I wish I had a decade ago when I graduated.

Hello and welcome to the 81st episode of the Graduate Job Podcast, and I’ve got a special guest for you today, career expert and fellow podcast host, Scott Barlow. In this episode we delve into the topic of finding a graduate job that is going to fit you like a glove. We explore what will make you happy at work, and equally importantly what is going to make you unhappy and a few brilliant experiments, such as the ‘social Goldilocks’ experiment, so that you can to discover this before you start working there. We explore Scott’s story of how suffering from anxiety attacks at work at the age of just 23 led him to craft a career that he truly enjoys, and he gives you brilliant tips to allow you to do the same. Scott shares some insightful questions that you need to be asking yourself so you can discover that sweet spot between what you enjoy doing and what you are good at, which is going to help ensure you are happy at work. No matter where you are in your jobsearch, still applying, or maybe in a job which isn’t rocking your world, this is an episode which you aren’t going to want to miss. Now the only link you need to remember form today is graduatejobpodcast.com/fit, as that has all of the links to everything which we discuss and a full transcript which you can download, so make sure you head on over there.

Before we start let’s have a little message from today’s sponsor who are who are our friends over at CareerGym.com. There are some things in life you can’t escape, death taxes, and psychometric tests when you apply for a graduate job. The only way to get really good at them is to practice practice practice, which is where Career Gym comes in. Career Gym is the number one place for you to undertake all of your psychometric tests which you will face when you apply for a graduate job. The bottom line is that no matter what graduate job you apply for, from the global giants to that small company around the corner from you, you’re going to have to do some type of verbal and numerical reasoning, situational judgment, and working style tests. At Career Gym.com you can practice all of these and they come with detailed explanations and you can compare yourself against your peers or do them under time pressure. And as a valued listener of the show they will give you 20% off of all of their tests if you use the code GJP. So, head over to http://www.CareerGym.com that’s CareerGym.com and use the code GJP to get 20% off all of their tests and start practicing today. Now, on with the show.

James Curran: I’m really pleased to have on the show today podcast royalty, host of the Happen to Your Career, and Family Passport podcasts, welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, Scott Barlow.

Scott Barlow: Thank you very much. I’m thrilled to pieces to be here.

James: And Scott, you’re dialing in all the way from the West Coast, so it’s good that we’ve gone transatlantic again in the quest to bring the best job search talent out and about there. So, Scott would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to start the Happen to Your Career website and podcast?

Scott: Yeah, absolutely, and honestly the way that it started, if we go back to the real reasons it started, it was because all through college and university, I didn’t know what the heck I wanted to do, to be quite frank with you. I didn’t know what I wanted to do for my career, I didn’t know what I wanted to do with my life. I was one of those people that changed majors, changed focuses eight, nine, 10 times, I don’t even remember how many times.

And I, through that process, ended up finding business and sinking my teeth into that, particularly marketing and HR management and thought, “Hey, this is something I can settle in. But, I ended up having a bit of exposure to that and ended up taking an internship that gave me a bunch of experience, and that led to my very first professional job outside of university.

Unfortunately, once I got there, which all my friends and family had told me, “This is an amazing opportunity. You have to take this,” because they were giving me a ton of responsibility, and I had 20 people reporting to me, which is pretty unusual.

James: Wow, that’s impressive for your first job.

Scott: Yeah, 23. It sounded pretty good, right?

James: Yeah.

Scott: So, I had a brand new bride, my wife Alyssa, and I moved her down to Portland, Oregon on the West Coast in the States here, and I started working at that job and found that I hated it. It was terrible. It was stressful, I was working 70 to 80-hour weeks, I was commuting an hour one way, two hours the other way. So, three hours a day commuting, and I was having anxiety attacks as it progressed. I didn’t even know what an anxiety attack was. I just knew that I was so stressed out that on the way into work in the morning, I was having a terrible time, and it turns out, later, these are actually anxiety attacks, and it got so bad that I actually ended up gaining about 50 pounds. Clearly, a terrible situation. Very much not in alignment and not a great situation for me.

So, I ended up deciding that I had to do something about this because I thought, “I can’t continue,” so I ended up talking to my boss and finally worked up the courage, gave him a call because he wasn’t in the same office as me, and said, “You know what? I think that this isn’t necessarily a great fit,” and apparently he thought the same thing, because three weeks later, he fired me.

James: Well, it’s better than — you’re going to quit anyway, so at least it made your mind up for you.

Scott: Yeah, I don’t know I’d have the same exact conversation in the same way. It probably wasn’t handled the greatest way at the time, but it absolutely led to him firing me, and after getting fired and having to call my wife and say, “Hey, I know I moved you down here away from your family, and now I don’t even have a job to show for it,” and all the things that went along with that.

I realized that, actually, this was a really great thing. This was a really good thing because who knows? I might still be there in misery to this day. But, I decided I can’t go through this again. There’s no way I ever want to do this again. So, it was on that drive home, after being fired, that I swore, “Look, I’m never going to do this again and I want to figure out how to do this differently.”

So, that ended up sending me on this 10-year quest for myself to really figure out how do you do work that is actually enjoyable, and provides the right challenges to you, and is much more fulfilling in a way that you want to? And many years later, after going through that, I started having these conversations over and over again where my coworkers would be like, “Wait a minute, wait a minute. You went from operations into HR management,” or, “Hold on, hold on. You got a $40,000 raise? How do you do that?”

So, I kept finding myself in conversations like that with friends and coworkers where they’re like, “Hey, hey, hey. How about I go buy you coffee and you tell me how you did this, and let me go and do it?” and they were starting to have success with that after having conversations like this all the time for a few years, and realized that, “Hey, people were offering to pay. I could actually do this as a business,” and that’s where Happen to Your Career was born less than a year after that.

James: Oh, brilliant. That’s a great story, and it sounds long hours and long commutes. It doesn’t sound like an ideal job.

Scott: It was not a fun beginning, that’s for sure.

James: And today, we’re going to explore the topic of finding a graduate job that fits you. So, Scott maybe starting us off. Why is it important to find one that fits you as opposed to the first one that you’re offered?

Scott: Well, here’s what I have experienced again and again is that most of the time, we have a tendency to get a graduate degree because we’re looking for something better or a better situation, and that’s a great reason to do so, and that is awesome. However, when you come out and when you have that graduate degree, then it doesn’t always work out in the same way that you anticipate.

And what I found from that is sometimes if we are just accepting what is out there versus identifying what really actually creates a great situation for us and then going and getting it, those two alternatives lead to different levels of happiness, and fulfillment, and feelings of purpose, and all kinds of other good things: rainbows, unicorns, whatever. Maybe not the rainbows and unicorns, but you get the idea.

And when instead, we identify what are the most important elements that we really want within our work and our career, and especially as it relates to our life because so many of those pieces impact every other area of our life, then when we do that and when we know what those are, we find that it’s much, much easier to go and find it.

And when you are in that situation, when you work in a job that is maybe not as terrible as mine where you gain 50 pounds and you’re kind of hating life and everything that goes along with it. But, if you’re in a less desirable situation versus one that is very fulfilling and allows you to work within your strengths and allows you to be in alignment with what you value the most, then it’s a completely different situation. One feels like working with the grain, one feels like going against the grain.

James: I completely agree and it all makes complete sense. As difficult as it might be, the listeners who are listening who are still in university or maybe just looking for their first public graduate job is they haven’t got that work experience. How do you know what it is that’s going to make you happy at work and what’s going to be important for you? What do you recommend them doing there?

Scott: That’s a great question. Well, there’s some things we know from some really good research in science that we, as human beings, all have the tendency to need. So, those are things like we all need to have the things that aren’t taking away from — like, let’s say for example, you have a great situation, you’ve identified what’s going to be a great job, great career, etcetera, for you.

But, if you have some of those pieces that are taken away like, statistically, if you have more than an hour commute each way, then there’s going to be an expiration date on when this becomes no longer a good thing for you. Because, that’s going to take a good situation or a great situation and turn it into a less-desirable situation. Or, if you don’t feel like you’re being paid fairly. That has a huge, huge impact. Now, interesting piece of that is typically only just above 10% of people actually negotiate their wages. So, most of the world is actually going into jobs feeling like they are not necessarily paid fairly or in the way that they want to be. So, those are not necessarily great stats.

But, anything that’s going to detract from an otherwise great situation can actually override and flip over the whole thing, turning it from a good situation into a not good. So, there’s that side of it. But, then the other side of it is that we all must be helping people in one way or another. Now, that sounds kind of obvious. Like, everybody, at some point in their lives, has the realization, “I want to help people.” You’ve probably felt that in one way or another over time. Is that fair to say?

James: Definitely. It’s one of the reasons I do the podcast is I like helping people and it’s great when you get the feedback saying that people have got graduate jobs and the podcast has been a big help. So, it feels really good when you get those notes through.

Scott: Yeah, absolutely. So, what I’ve found is that even though we all need to have that element there of helping others, helping other human beings, it looks completely different from person to person. So, the way that you enjoy helping people the most and the way that you directly believe that you’re helping people the most might be different than me, or the next person, or the next person.

So, what we find that’s really important is not just that you need to be helping people, but the more important part of that is that you directly connect with what you’re doing how you’re helping people. For some people, that might mean that — well, it might mean that you’re working with people one-on-one. For other people, it might be that you’re collaborating with teams and getting to see the impact with whatever that team is working on. For some people, it might be something completely different. Maybe, for some people, it’s states, and nations, and even beyond. But, the important part there is that, whatever it is, for you, you directly see and connect how that is happening. Does that make sense?

James: Yeah, that makes sense. And in terms of coming to that realization, is it something that you recommend people would do in the front end before they start applying or is it easier to do once you’ve started working and you can see, “I like this part of the job, but this bit doesn’t really float my boat.”

Scott: That’s such a great question, and there’s probably a few different ways that I could answer that, some which would take longer than others, because sometimes we find that it is not always a direct answer, and you have to work your way around to what is going to be a good answer for you.

However, one way that we found that works very well, and a lot of times, we’ll do this when we’re coaching somebody through this, then trying to arrive at these answers is we’ll look at what’s happened in the past first. So, even if you are fresh out of — like, maybe you’ve not really had that much of a working career, or whether it’s the case where you’ve gone and worked 10 years and then got your graduate degree, whatever it happens to be, you have a past and you can draw upon that past.

So, where we will often start is looking at different types of past roles, projects, any place where you have gotten any opportunity to do some type of work. That can be school, etcetera, etcetera. And then we’re looking at those pieces and finding out, “Okay, what were the elements of each one?” and often we’ll just have people list them on a piece of paper and leave some space in between to start. And I love this exercise because anyone can do it at any point in time. You can grab a piece of paper and just start doing this.

But, leave some space in between and evaluate what were the areas that you enjoyed most out of that experience? You know, if that was a past job, then what were the areas that you enjoyed in that job the very most, even if they’re small. I mean, for some people, it might be, “Well, it’s getting paid,” and for other people, it might be, “Well, I got the opportunity to collaborate with this particular type of project,” and for still others, it might be something else.

Or, if it’s a volunteer experience, then that’s okay too. You do the exact same thing. So, what were those areas that you enjoyed the most, and then what were those areas that you found that you were better at than the average person, where you excelled at? Now, what happens when we go back and do that in the past, we start to notice different patterns, especially if we’re digging any level below the surface here. We start to notice some of the patterns that have a tendency to pop up.

Those patterns are not necessarily the answer in itself, but they give us clues as to what to look for in the next situation, the next role, the next opportunity for wherever you’re at. And that often will give you clues as to your strengths, but it will also give you clues as to the ways that you enjoy helping others the most too.

Now, another way that we’ll look at this too, especially for those people that have had paid experience or already been working professionally for a number of years, we’ll go and look at what were the parts that you kept gravitating to again and again even though that might not have been part of your job. And I bet you can probably think of some of these things too. What are the things that you’re doing in some of your past work that you keep sort of doing and can’t stop doing, in some ways, even though it’s not really that big of a part of your job, or maybe it’s not a part of your role at all. But, you kind of can’t help but doing it.

James: I love that final question, that, “What’d you gravitate to?” That’s a really powerful question, and it’s one that you do subconsciously just thinking about work and things that I move towards doing even though it’s not in my job description. That’s a really good question.

Scott: So, here’s a really tiny example of that. So, now I’m a podcast host like you, and one of the things I used to do, this has been 15, 20 years ago when I was in college at university. I used to work for an office supply store, and every single night, when we’d close the store, we’d make like a 15-minute announcement. I used to love it, getting on the intercom and making that announcement. It’s such a silly thing, but I used to get a lot of joy for that final 15 minutes and be like, “Attention, Staples shoppers.”

I point that out, partially, in jest, but partially, I point that out because we find that those clues are always there forever budding at any stage in life, and it’s important not to ignore those clues because they can steer us in one direction versus another and help us realize what we actually need or what we do keep gravitating towards. Now, whether that is the way that we help people or maybe that has to do with our strengths, and particularly what we call signature strengths, which are those areas that you are not just great at, are not just good at, but also those areas that you also enjoy and it crosses over with the ways that you can deliver some of the most value too.

That’s naturally another area that we have — not we, but has been proven scientifically in many different ways that when you’re focused and when you spend more time in your day, just as little as one to two hours a day, working in your strengths versus outside your strengths, you feel a different level of enjoyment and fulfillment along with it. Just one to two hours more in time spent in that area, which is another case for identifying what you want, and also in this particular case, what you happen to be great at that you also enjoy, and focusing what is going to fit that rather than trying to look at what’s available out there and trying to mash yourself into what’s available.

James: That’s a brilliant point, and if you can find that sweet spot between what you enjoy doing and what you’re good at doing, then work is going to be a fun activity. I think, looking personally at my career, it’s tend to have been each job has been I learned more about maybe what I didn’t want to do than what I did want to do, and that’s one of the reasons I went into management consulting is because, as a career, you get to try lots of different things, and different type of roles and stuff, so I could sort of narrow it down as I sort of go along to keep on discovering the things that I really didn’t enjoy as much as something else and just narrowing it down that way.

Scott: Very cool, and that’s such a great point, too, that you have put yourself into a situation in the past where you can try lots of different things. And I think that’s actually such a great strategic approach too.

Actually, we do a variation of that with a lot of the people that we help and a lot of our students and clients where if they’re trying to decide what is going to be right, maybe they just came out of school with their degree and they are trying to — they’ve got their degree, they’ve got an idea of where they want to be in, but don’t necessarily know all the pieces of what’s going to be a great fit, we’ll actually help them design small experiments so that they can get that type of result that you’re talking about and try out a lot of things that are relatively low-risk to make sure that, before they jump into their next role, next job, they get six months into it and realize that, “Oh my goodness, this is not where I want to be.” We wouldn’t wish that on anybody.

James: No, that’s not a good place to be. Could you give us an example there of some of the experiments that you design with your clients?

Scott: Yeah, absolutely. And by the way, the biggest reason that — well, there’s several different reasons why we do this, but we talked a lot in our company and also on our podcast about the idea of multi-purpose activities. And that’s, of course, doing one thing for multiple reasons as opposed to just doing one thing that’s going to be great. We want to, ideally, spend our time in ways that are going to benefit us for multiple purposes.

So, every experiment that we help design for our students and for our clients often includes multiple reasons for that. So, here’s an example for that. We’ve named each of these different types of experiments that we use over and over again, and one example is what we call a “social Goldilocks”.

And the social Goldilocks, which is much like if you’ve heard the story of Goldilocks like, “This corner office is too big, this chair is too soft,” that sort of thing, finding the right one, the social Goldilocks is being able to interact with a lot of people, either in organizations that you believe might be a good fit, you have a hypothesis that it may be a great fit based on what you know about them, and trying to validate that it is, in fact, a great fit. Or, even better, potentially, that it’s not a great fit so that you don’t waste your time trying to go after that particular organization when it’s not going to align with what you want to need.

And the same thing is true for different types of roles as well. And the way that might look is identifying a variety of people that have roles that you suspect could be good for you in being able to validate “would they actually?”

So, a lot of people, when I say that, they think of things like informational interviews. But, I would offer a different pretext instead of an informational interview. We call it having a test drive conversation, and the reason we do is because it’s for the purpose of identifying whether or not this could be a great fit, and getting feedback, and also, at the same time, building relationships with those people that might be in an organization or in those types of roles, or maybe can help or hire you into those types of roles too.

So, here’s an example. Laura, who we worked with, that’s been a little while ago, but she was pretty disenchanted in her past work history, ended up deciding she wanted to do something different. And she’d gotten her master’s degree a while back, but got back into the workforce, didn’t turn out how she anticipated that it would turn out. So, she ended up in a role that really wasn’t a great fit.

So, she wanted to make switch, and she suspected that she wanted to go into either sustainability, or innovations, or she was also looking at product management. So, what she did is she went and talked to people in each of these different respective fields and had really simple conversations.

What she would do is she would call them up or email them and say, “Hey, I’m looking at making my next career switch here, or my next career change, and I’m trying to decide where I really want to be: what types of companies and what types of organizations, and really hone in on the specific types of roles that I’m interested in, and I’m wondering would you be willing to have a short 15-minute conversation where I can ask you a few questions because I’m really interested in what you do?”

And more often than not, people would say yes, and they’d be very gracious with their time, and she’d get to have that conversation, and go in and find out, “Hey, it looks like you’ve got a similar background to me, but I’m curious what do you really love about what it is that you do, or what do you find that people need to have, or do, or experience in order to be successful in this type of role?” and she got all kinds of feedback from that. But, more so than that, she had now built her relationship with each one of these people.

James: Those conversations are just so powerful and crucial. It’s one thing just looking at the perspectives for the companies and reading about what they say the blurb is like for when you do the — you know, what the job will be like if you do it. But, you can’t beat speaking to people who are actually doing it, and asking them what does a good day look like, what does a bad day look like, and just going through different questions, and finding, from the horse’s mouth, what the job is really like.

Scott: Yeah, you’re right on. Those are great questions too.

James: Are there any specific sort of tactics you’d recommend for reaching out to people? Is it best to do it through LinkedIn or just friends of friends? What do you find tends to work best for those social Goldilocks conversations, all of that?

Scott: Well, I’ll tell you that when you get to tactics, the reason why no tactic is perfect is because tactics make assumptions that certain things are going on. So, you’re not going to find one particular tactic that is perfect for every situation and everybody. However, there are some things that we can consider.

One example of that is if you get somebody on the phone, it’s harder for them to tell you no. It’s also harder for them to ignore you as well. So, often we’ll recommend that, wherever possible, get a phone number, and pick up the phone, and have that type of short conversation, being able to introduce yourself, let them know you’re not selling anything. You don’t even have to say that.

It can sound like, “Hey, I’m getting ready to make a career switch. I’ve just come out of my graduate degree and I’m trying to figure out where I really want to use it, and I saw your information on LinkedIn, and I was really curious about what it is that you’re doing. It looked really very fascinating to me. And I’m wondering would you be willing to have a 15-minute conversation with me where I could ask you some questions about what you do. I’m happy to work around your schedule.”

It’s hard for somebody to say no or ignore that partially because you’re making it easy for them to say yes. One, as long as you’re being genuine, which I would not advise you to use this as an approach unless you genuinely are interested in what it is that they do, because that’s going to be a recipe for disaster if you’re not.

But, more so than that, if you’re genuinely interested in them, that’s one of the biggest gifts that we can give other human beings, and a lot of people don’t think about it that way. But, on top of that, you’re not asking for something that they have a hard time saying yes to. If you’re asking for an hour of your time, I don’t know about you, but I think you and I were talking the other day as we were trying to schedule this, and you’re like, “Hey, I have one hour in here. Otherwise, my January and February are booked solid.”

So, it’s hard to find an hour of people’s time in a lot of occasions, but when you’re asking for 15 minutes, that’s a different scenario. A lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people can find 15 minutes. So, you’re asking for something that they can say yes to.

So, that’s an example of how that can work over the phone, but you can do the same thing on LinkedIn, or the same thing via email. It’s just it’s easier to ignore email or it’s easier to have it go to the wrong folder, or other things can happen. So, there’s a couple of considerations as it relates to tactics.

James: That’s a brilliant point, and one thing people always love is to talk about themselves. So, if you’re asking them to talk about their career, people love talking about themselves, so you want a good topic.

Scott: Yeah, absolutely, especially if you are willing and legitimately interested in listening to them. This has stuck with me for probably about 10 years right now, but I had somebody who was leading a — just an amazing facilitator, and one of the things that she said is that, “Hey, one of the best gifts that you can ever give a human being is your genuine time and attention and listening to them; truly, truly listening to them.” And while I believe that that’s true, and it should not be misused as a tactic, it’s definitely very, very helpful.

James: Completely agree, and it works. It’s good advice there to especially take into interviews when you’ve gone for assessment days and interviews. Just make sure you are listening properly and not just thinking about trying to second-guess the next question that’s coming out. So, Scott next question then. For people who are in a job at the moment and it’s alright. You know, it’s not blowing their mind, it’s not super-bad. They’re sort of stuck in that grey zone. How do you know when you’re just going through, maybe, what is a temporary blip or you’re definitely in a rut? Any advice for listeners who’d find themself in that position?

Scott: I think that — and I’ve been in that position in a variety of different ways. I’ve had a role that, for all intents and purposes, was my dream job, and then because what I wanted changed over the years, it turned into something that was just mediocre and wasn’t mind-blowing, as you said before. But, we’ve also helped a lot of people in that exact same situation too, and a couple of the ways that I think about it, a couple of questions I have a tendency to ask myself to understand is this just a blip or is this something I really need to actively make a change on?

And one of those really simple questions is how long has this been going on? And if you look back and think, “Wow, this has been going on for three-plus months or six-plus months or something like that,” then yes you absolutely need to do something. Life is way too short to go through — six months, that’s a pretty sizeable chunk of each of our lives.

And the thing that I find that always propels me forward to then take additional steps is not only is that a sizeable chunk of our lives, but also it is completely possible to get to a better situation. One that you may not even realize how much better it could be. And by choosing to continue along, then you’re heightening the possibility that you will regret it later. In fact, there’s some really, really good research around this. A lot of people have the “should I stay or should I go” question, and that’s a little bit what you’re asking here, right?

James: Yeah.

Scott: So, whenever you’re faced with that question, and there’s that pretext behind it, then very, very, very rarely, when people make a decision to do something, or to act, or in this case, to leave, especially when it’s been an ongoing period of time where they’ve felt that blah or not felt that, those fireworks, or whatever you want to call them. Not felt that joy, not felt that heightened level of engagement, or happiness, or insert your buzzword here. But, whenever you leave, there is a very, very, very low chance that you’ll regret making that decision.

However, for those people that do nothing or choose not to make that decision or choose not to act upon it, there is a very, very high chance that you will regret that later. But, that’s totally counterintuitive compared to what we think when we’re in that situation because, in that situation, we’re worried about what might happen if I leave, or what are all the bad things that could happen if I leave?

And research tells us that it’s exactly the opposite of the way that we feel when we’re in the moment, instead that we rarely regret it when we make the decision to go, especially if we know that it’s been an ongoing period of time. Or, a decision to do something. It may not even be going. It might be going and having a conversation with your boss and saying that, “Hey, you know what? I am not having as much fun as I wanted to. I am very interested in having a much more enjoyable aspect in my role. Here are some ways that I’ve identified that I could contribute to the company differently, and I’m really interested in talking to you about these and seeing what ideas and advice you would have too, because I find that when I’m having more fun and enjoying it much more, especially like I used to be, I’m more productive. And I want to be more productive for you, and I also am very interested in having a higher level of enjoyment. What can we do? Would you be interested in having that conversation?”

And most bosses are not going to say, “Screw you. I’m not interested in you in being more productive.” Likely, that’s not going to come out of their mouth.

James: Definitely. That’s career advice gold there. I really like that. Yeah, no boss is going to want to turn down a happier, more productive employee, so that’s really good. And as you were talking, then, about jobs and people tending to stay too long just reminds me a thing about previous myself and friends in previous relationships, people tend to always hang around too long in them, and in the end, they never go, “I wish I’ve stuck around in that longer.” It’s always, “I wish I pulled the trigger on that six months or a year earlier.” So, here it’s exactly the same with jobs. People just wished they’d left a lot earlier than they end up doing.

Scott: Yes, absolutely. We find that people that are happier, in general, more happy more frequently, since happiness isn’t really a destination so much. It’s not like a permanent state. It is but putting yourself in a situation where you find that you’re more happy more often. Those types of people that are really good at putting themselves in that state are also the same types of people that are very practiced at transitioning or leaving situations that are less good for them.

James: Yep, that’s definitely a skill to think about, listeners. So, Scott, time is running away with us. But, maybe one final question before we move on to the weekly quick-fire questions where I put you under a bit of time pressure. Final question then, money. It makes the world go round. We talked earlier about how maybe a lack of money can lead you to leaving a job early.

For listeners who are looking out at that initial graduate job, the clients I coach, this tends to be a big consideration. For a relatively small amount of money, they’ll maybe plump for one job that’s maybe earning a couple of thousand more than one that they’re probably a lot more suited to. I mean, in your experience, should money play such a large part in the decision-making process when you’re looking for a job that’s going to fit?

Scott: I believe that I have a tendency to look at it in a slightly different way. I look at what does the money do for you, and how does it align with everything else that you want to accomplish in other areas of your life. Because, that’s ultimately what money does for you. It acts as a tool for us to be able to do one type of thing or another, right?

So, the amount of money that is required to accomplish whatever our other goals or whatever’s important to us is how we usually back into that. So, if we understand what’s important to us and we understand that this is going to take a large or sizeable amount of money to accomplish whatever’s important to us, then I think that absolutely should play an important part, because you’re not going to be able to accomplish your other goals or those things that are very important to you if you ignore that piece of it.

And I think that it does get ignored or people don’t necessarily always connect one to another. But, money for the sake of money, necessarily, I don’t — other than providing for your basic needs, once you start making beyond a certain level of money, it doesn’t really necessarily do a whole lot for your happiness for most human beings. There’s a small portion of the population where it’s an exception.

But yeah, I do think it should be a consideration, so far, as it relates to everything else that you want to accomplish in your life, absolutely. And I would advise you not to ignore it.

James: So, you’re going back to the initial example you gave about your first job. If someone had offered you an extra $5,000, $10,000, it’s not going to make you any happier if you still got that three-hour commute and 70 hours a week, is it, I guess?

Scott: It might for a very short period of time, but after that month wears off, then ultimately, you realize that that extra five or ten thousand dollars is buying a large chunk of your time in one way or another, and often, for most people, it’s not worth it after that honeymoon period wears off.

James: Definitely. Scott, thank you. You’ve made some really brilliant insights there, and social Goldilocks is a phrase and term that’s going to stick with me for a long time.

Scott: I’m so glad.

James: I thought it was going to involve porridge at one point.

Scott: Well, you can involve some porridge if you want to, but optional. Porridge optional.

James: Yeah, we’ll have to work that into the next time you use it.

Scott: That’s funny.

James: So, Scott, moving onto our quick-fire questions. I’m interested. You must be a very well-read man. I’m interested in your responses you’re going to give to these questions. So, first question, what book – it doesn’t have to be career-related. It could be anything. What one book would you recommend that our listeners should read?

Scott: Speaking of money, one of the largest things that creates more choices in your life is not having any kind of debt and having a significant amount of money, and I find that is very, very helpful. So, The Total Money Makeover has been — it’s not a career book at all, but it enables a lot of options for people’s careers. So, that’s by Dave Ramsey. And then one other that is more on the element of biohacking, which is creating the energy to be able to do the things you want in your career, it’s a new one by Dave Asprey, if you’ve ever heard of him.

James: Is he Bulletproof?

Scott: Yeah, that’s the guy. Anyhow, I was pleasantly surprised about his new book. It’s just very, very good. I would put it in my top 10, and what is that called? I’m buying myself time because I can’t remember the name. Game Changers, that’s what it’s called.

James: I’m just scribbling some notes here, but listeners, don’t worry. I will link up to everything from today, including a full transcript and all the links to everything we’ve discussed over in the show notes at GraduateJobPodcast.com/fit. So, Scott thank you for them. Just in time for Christmas to get them on my Christmas list. So, definitely, I’ve heard a lot about Dave Ramsey and Dave Asprey as well. So, I need to check those out myself.

Scott: Well, I think you’ll enjoy them.

James: I’ve heard him on a few different podcasts, so it will be good to read his book. Have you implemented any of the hacks that he recommends?

Scott: Yeah. Dave Asprey?

James: Yeah.

Scott: Yes, and actually, one of the things that he was talking about that I have not done a great job of is being able to track my sleep. I’ve become very, very focused on my energy levels over the last probably about 10 years or so, and I’ve noticed my energy fluctuate over the years for a variety of different reasons as I’m working on different pieces at different times.

But, I haven’t ever really done a great job of focusing on getting quality sleep. It’s never been an issue for me until the last couple of years, in particular. So, one of the things that I literally just ordered last night, it’s called an Oura Ring. It syncs up with your phone, for all intents and purposes, and provides a whole bunch of different pieces of data to be able to track your sleep, which if you’re not super-interested in data, it may sound really boring. But, ultimately, what it’s going to do for me is help me create my own baseline about what creates great quality sleep for me.

James: That sounds good, and talking about happiness over the episode, if you’re not sleeping properly, you’re certainly not going to be happy. So, it’s definitely an underrated or underappreciated aspect of people’s lives that can really change the needle in terms of if you’re sleeping well, you’re going to be performing well as well.

Scott: Yeah.

James: So, next question then, Scott. What one internet resource would you point people towards?

Scott: Especially for the topic that we just spent a lot of time talking about, identifying a great fit, honestly the biggest internet resource I would mention would be we have this eight-day mini-course that guides you through how to identify what’s most important for you and helps you get started in identifying what really does create an ideal career fit for you, and that’s at FigureItOut.co.

So, a really, really great resource. We’ve had about approaching 30,000 people through it. Lots of people have sent us emails saying, “Hey, you should charge for this,” but we don’t. We’ve offered it for free for six years now, and it just provides you an email a day with a really simple exercise to help you understand more and more about what creates a great fit for you. So, FigureItOut.co.

James: Super, and yeah I will link to that as well, and you can’t beat free. So, really like that one. And final question then, Scott. What one tip would you give listeners that they can implement today to help them on their job search?

Scott: I would pull out your calendars right now. If you can’t clearly answer the question for yourself, not for me, not for anybody else, but for yourself about what do you want and need most in not just your career, but your life, what are some of those top three or top five things that you’re lacking right now that you need the very most? If you can’t rattle off the answer, then I would pull open your calendar right this very second. Identify 90 minutes to two hours where you can set aside, “This is time that is going to massively change your future,” taking some of this initial time to try and answer some of these questions for you.

And that internet resource that I mentioned earlier: FigureItOut.co will help provide some guidance and some questions that you can ask yourself to get to those answers. But, making the time and making that a priority for yourself, it’s so, so, so worth it. It’s going to lead you to some answers, and even some more questions too.

But, the closer that you can understand what you actually want, that gives you the ability to go out in the world and figure out, “Okay, well now that I know what I really want, let me go after what I really want. So, open your calendar, 90 minutes to two hours, and that is the action.

James: I love it. And listeners, come on. This is more important than scrolling through Instagram, Facebook, or whatever it is that you’re wasting your time on. Invest these two hours in yourself and it will pay you back many, many times over if you put the effort in. Scott, thank you so much for appearing in the Graduate Job Podcast. It’s been a cracking episode. What is the best way that people can get in touch with you, and your podcast, and your website, and all of the like?

Scott: Well, if you’re hearing us now, then I’m guessing you enjoy podcasts, so you can certainly connect with us by searching Happen to Your Career and our podcast will pop right up on iTunes or any other place that you listen to podcasts. But, also our home base is HappenToYourCareer.com, and that has so many different resources that we’ve developed over the years. And if you have any interest whatsoever in learning more about yourself and what you really want to need in order to be enamored with your life and work, then I would suggest heading over there and checking out and choosing the ones that are going to be best for you. We have a “start here” page that will help guide you through some of the best stuff.

James: It’s all brilliant, and I highly recommend it. So, listeners make sure you definitely check it out. Scott, thank you so much for your time today.

Scott: Thank you. Thank you for all the great questions and conversation. I appreciate it.

James: Thank you.

James: So thereyou go, the lovely and extremely friendly Scott Barlow.I hope you enjoyed that episode and took away from it as much as I did. I love Scott’s experiments which he mentioned and also the questions that you need to be asking yourself to make sure that your job really does fit. Check out the show notes at graduatejobpodcast.com/fit for the full transcript which you can download. So that is everything from me today, if you have enjoyed the show then please leave me a review on Itunes or where ever it is that you listen to the show from. It is much appreciated and helps me to stay high in the rankings so that people can find me. Let me know if you do leave review and I’ll read it out next week. And speaking of week the show will just be with yours truly, as I go through some of the pros and cons of a graduate scheme, it’s a goodie. I hope you enjoyed the show today but importantly, I hope you use it, and apply it. See you next week.