Episode 39: 18 ignored and unusual ways to get a graduate job, with Matt Hearnden

January 31, 2016 Podcast

In episode 39 of the Graduate Job Podcast, I am joined by author and Career Coach Matt Hearnden, as we discuss his latest book ‘18 ignored and unusual ways to get a graduate job’. As a former graduate recruiter, Matt has a wealth of insight into how you can get a graduate job, whether with one of the big graduate schemes or a small start-up. We delve into some of the 18 unusual tips from his book which range from ideas to help you think about what you really want to do, and what’s important to you in a job, to tactical tips which will ensure that you stand head and shoulders above all of the other applicants. It doesn’t matter where you are on your job search, or the type of company you are applying to, there is something in this episode that will help you bag that job.

Before we start a quick request from me, your feedback helps me to create the episodes you want to hear, so I’ve set up a super simple and very quick survey, as I want the show to best serve your needs. It’s got 5 questions and will take you a minute, so please check it out at http://www.graduatejobpodcast.com/survey/ . I look forward to hearing your thoughts. But in the meantime, let’s crack on with the show.

Remember you can subscribe via Spotify, Itunes and Stitcher Radio so you never miss a show!

MORE SPECIFICALLY IN THIS EPISODE YOU’LL LEARN ABOUT:

  • Why you need to be doing something every day as you look for a job
  • The value of asking what is important to you
  • How starting a blog can set you apart from all the other job applicants
  • The importance of being specific, and why it can make the difference to your job search
  • Why you need to be using the website Quora
  • How doing one more thing can change your life
  • Why you should really think about giving up….yes giving up!

SELECTED LINKS AND RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

IF YOU LIKED THIS EPISODE THEN CHECK THESE OUT:

Transcript – Episode 39: 18 ignored and unusual ways to get a graduate job, with Matt Hearnden

James: Hello and welcome to the Graduate Job Podcast, with your host James Curran. The Graduate Job Podcast is your weekly home for all things related to helping you on your journey to finding that amazing job. Each week I bring together the best minds in the industry, speaking to leading authors, entrepreneurs, coaches and bloggers who bring decades of experience into a byte size weekly 30 minute show. Put simply, this is the show I wish I had a decade ago when I graduated.

In episode 39 of the Graduate Job Podcast, I welcome back my first repeat guest, author and Career Coach Matt Hearnden as we discuss his latest book ’18 ignored and unusual ways to get a graduate job’. As a former graduate recruiter Matt has a wealth of insight into how you can get a graduate job, whether with one of the big graduate schemes or a small start up. We delve into some of the 18 unusual tips from his book which range from ideas to help you think about what you really want to do, and what’s important to you in a job, to tactical tips which will ensure that you stand head and shoulders above all of the other applicants. It doesn’t matter where you are on your job search, or the type of company you are applying to, there is something in this episode that will help you bag that job. As always, all links to everything we discuss and a full transcript are available in the show notes at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/Matt. As an added incentive to head over there, you can download a free copy of the book itself. Yes that’s free, so don’t say I never give you anything, and many thanks to Matt for his generosity. So that’s www.graduatejobpodcast.com/Matt. Before we start a quick request from me, your feedback helps me to create the episodes you want to hear, so I’ve set up a super simple and very quick survey, as I want the show to best serve your needs. It’s got 5 questions and will take you a minute, so please check it out at http://www.graduatejobpodcast.com/survey/ . I look forward to hearing your thoughts. But in the meantime, let’s crack on with the show.

James: Great to welcome back Matt Hearnden, Graduate Recruiter turned writer and author. Matt, welcome back to the Graduate Job Podcast.

Matt: Hello James. Yeah, the first repeat guest. I’m very happy about that and thanks for having me on again.

James: A pleasure. So I was checking, it was back in May last year when we had you on for episode 19 which was ‘Secrets of a Graduate Recruiter’. Check it out listeners at graduatejobpodcast.com/secrets if you haven’t already done so. And today we’re going to talk about your new book Eighteen Ignored and Unusual Ways to Get a Graduate Job, which I think is just full of cracking tips, that we’re going to dip into it over the course of the show. But before we get into that book, do you want to just fill us in on what you’ve been up to over the last, what, nine months?




Matt: Yeah, I know, I can’t believe it’s that long. So, I’ve been doing lots and lots of writing as you said. I’ve self-published my first book as well, it’s called Forty-Two and if anyone is interested it’s only 99p on Amazon, so just search my name in there, and that was kind of a big moment for me really. I was really happy when I first put something out there like that. I’ve been writing for a long time and putting my blog posts out there and myself out there I suppose, and to actually self-publish something, to actually make money from that was really exciting actually, to be honest and I sort — I probably underestimated how exciting it was because, it took– I wrote the book actually quite quickly, to be honest, but the editing of it, I wanted it to be obviously, just the best it could be, to give us much as I could give to it, so, the editing took a long time, but again it’s something I just really enjoyed. There are some writers and authors who don’t really like editing, which I don’t quite understand, but for me it was a really, really just a rewarding process, and then to make money from it was awesome. And so I’ve been doing, to be honest, it’s mainly the writing, focusing on building my audience, building my– the number of subscribers on my blog and I’ve been writing lots on Quora the question and answer website, which is another great resource actually for graduates, so if anyone wants to look that up.

And now I’m actually working on something else as well, and I won’t go into it much, but it’s called ‘Write Now’ as in w-r-i-t-e and what it is, is basically writing ideas for every day of the year. So if there’s any of you guys studying English or want to kind of get into writing or blogging we can link that in somewhere with the podcast. But basically it’s writenow365.com and that’s the next thing I’m working on at the moment. A lot of people are kind of asking me ‘Oh how do you keep having things to write about? How do you keep coming up with this stuff?’, and really it is about having ideas and thinking in a creative way and how you can tell stories in one way, and put an emphasis on one thing and maybe put an emphasis on another thing, another time you tell a story. So that’s something I’m working on at the moment which again, is kind of growing fast. So hopefully, that’s going to be something as well. So yeah, definitely lots of writing, different kinds of business ideas. So yeah man it’s been a pretty amazing nine months, to be honest.

James: Sounds like you’ve got no regrets then, of leaving the corporate world of graduate recruitment?

Matt: Not at all. I was actually saying this to one of my friends the other day when–, he also left at kind of a bit of a similar time to me, and literally we said to each other as well, that I’m so, so happy that that was the decision I made. And it was 100% the right decision for me, which I believed at the time, but it’s nice to know that now.

James: Definitely, and yep you’ve gone from success to success and we’ll link to your website in the show notes, with a lot of your articles which are appearing all over the place; I’m sure people will be coming across them.

Matt: Yeah, great, thanks.

James: So, you talked about writing there as something you need to do every day which leads us seamlessly onto one of your top 18 tips, which is the third one. One of your ideas is to do something every day. Can you kick us off with why this is important when people are looking for a graduate job?

Matt: Absolutely, I mean, I think I’ve written you need to write every day because ultimately it’s important to me. And yes, of course, I enjoy it, I want to get better and I want to become a master of writing, but it all comes down to the fact that it’s important to me and it’s almost about asking yourself questions. If you’re saying to yourself, ‘I don’t have time. I don’t have time to do something every day’. Really?!? I mean that’s the excuse you’re going to use? Because even if it’s like, 10 minutes, that’s something. Even if it’s tweaking an application or doing 10 minutes extra research. How important is this to you? And to be honest, most people are gonna– lots of people will hear this and think, ‘Oh it is important to me’, but they still won’t do something every day. It’s gonna be the people who hear this and think ‘Okay yeah. I’m gonna’, even just for a week. Just try it for a week. Do something every day for one week, even if it’s just 10 minutes. And you’ll find yourself, I think, probably getting more and more sucked into it. Especially if it’s something that you really want. And if you’re finding out you’re sort of ‘Oh, I can’t be bothered to do it’, or like ‘Oh, I don’t want to do this’, then maybe you don’t want to work for that company or maybe that’s not really what you want to do. And then again that’s a chance for you to go back to yourself and think – ‘Well, what is it that I want to do? Where do I want to work? What kind of industry do I want to work in?’ So for me it’s almost about, yes, you can say it’s important to you but make it important to you.

To people who listen to this and think that, ‘Yeah, I’m going to do something every day, and I’m going to move forward every day, and get better every day’, those are the people that are going to stand out and those are the people that ultimately are going to do better than the people that kind of do stuff every few days and think ‘Oh, I did something yesterday, so I can have a rest today’. I’m not here to convince anyone, if you want to use the excuse I don’t have time. I’ve written at the end there I don’t have time for things that aren’t important to me. So if you don’t have time for it, how important is it to you, and are you making it important enough to you? Is what I would say about that.

James: Completely agree. The application form is easily something which you can just chunk down, so if you think about an online application for a company you’ve got X number of– 10 questions. It’s something which you can take one of them a day and think that I’ll just do a first draft of this first question and try and get that out and just, if you break it down in that, small chunks, it just becomes so much more manageable and less daunting and easier to do.

Matt: Yeah absolutely, I mean, that’s such a good way to do it. Just even saying it ‘Right, this week, I’m only going to focus on this one application. I am going to do something every day, I’m going to move forward every day’, and like you said about doing a question, that’s such a great way to do it. Take your time with it. Like there’s no– I’m not saying rush, I’m not saying hurry. Take your time with it and really think about – is this the best answer I could give? Is this– am I getting myself across or am I just saying random words? One thing I’ve learnt from writing is that the first draft is never going to do you justice. So write it all then leave it, then come back to it. You can always come back to it. There’s no need to send it off on that day.

I look back at when I very, very first started writing, that was a long time ago, I was really– to be honest I was scared to go back and edit because I thought well if I read it I’m going to have to do loads of editing because it’s no good and stuff and now I read it and I’m like ‘Yeah wow, that is, that’s awful!’ I sort of get what I’m saying but now I take much more time editing than I do writing, and my writing is just so much better for it. So it’s okay. You don’t have to send it off right then, that moment. Get it all down, get your thoughts down and then step away from it. Come away from it. Because at least you’ve then done some work but you haven’t rushed.

James: I completely agree and also if you say to yourself– even if you’re going to do– say well I’ll do 15 minutes of writing this application. Once you start you probably get into the flow that 15 minutes will easily turn into an hour and it’s not effort to, as if you would sit down and try to say ‘I’m going to do an hour’ and then you’ll probably find an excuse to why you can’t do an hour.

Matt: Yeah, exactly, you’ll be like ‘Oh, I need to do this or another’. I totally agree. I still sometimes do it, if I think ‘Oh, I’m tired’ or this, or that, or whatever, but you still have a choice in those moments. So I think right so I’ll just– like you said, I’ll just write for 15 minutes or I’ll just do the outline and then all of a sudden you find yourself writing and you find yourself doing whatever work you need to do and, like you said, hours pass and you’ve done it all. So that’s probably what’ll happen.

James: And linking on to your point about if you really, really can’t find the effort to do the application or to do the research for a particular job, you do need to be asking yourself is this a job which you want to be applying for? Which leads us nicely on to the tenth point you have in the ebook which is, ‘Right now what’s important to you?’, and I think this is such an important thing but one which so few people actually do.

Matt: Yeah.

James: Why do you think it’s so daunting for people to actually start to write down what it is that they want?

Matt: I think because. I think honestly, because people just have no idea even where to start. And I think we’re so, for me at least, I was so used to kind of not listening to myself that it was almost, when I did it, it was a bit like, I was like ‘Oh I dunno. What is important?’ I was, certainly when I was a lot younger, I lived a lot on other people’s expectations and what was important to other people and so writing down what was important to me was quite … confronting when I first did it, but just doing it gave me such a sense of clarity it was, I used to– I have written about this before, and I wrote down everything that was important to me and I put it in an order – what’s the most important thing to me in the world, what’s the next most important thing to me – and I’d written it all down and put it in order, I could only think, ‘that’s me’, I looked at the list and thought ‘that’s me’. And I think people just avoid it ‘cause they’ve never gone there before and I think it can certainly be intimidating.

We spend a lot of time either keeping ourselves busy or– how often do you hear either people keep themselves busy or they can’t get to sleep at night because that’s when their brain finally– all those thoughts they’ve pushed out finally come up and they think ‘Oh I’m worried about this and I’m worried about that’. Well if you confront those, if you think to yourself ‘Right. I’m going to write all these things down – what’s important to me – and I am going to find out who I am’. Then there’s no– well then why would you worry about what you’re going to do? Because you think, ‘Yeah, I’m a lot clearer now’, and it’s not about necessarily knowing exactly what– I’m not saying you’re going to have a complete list of what your whole life’s going to look like, but it’s like, writing down what’s important to me made me think ‘yeah, that’s who I am’, and it made things a lot clearer. I was like, well okay now I know that, these are the things I want to do, or these are the things I want to start to do. And actually even, this is the person I wanna now be, actually, I’m a lot more clear on who I am.

And it’s funny because all of this stuff sometimes sounds a bit like– people think is that just a load of rubbish? Why do I need to? It’s not even that when you know who you are everything will be wonderful and easy, it’s not that. But for me actually knowing who I am has just given me a confidence in myself, it’s self-esteem, it’s self-worth. And I think that is something that only comes from you. So it is when things don’t quite go your way or when you fail or something you didn’t want to happen, happens, it’s more about okay, well I’m still okay. The failure isn’t a reflection of me, it’s just something that I’ve done so I can learn from it still and I can get better rather than just letting it bring you down, and down and down. It’s just so important and it just baffles me that people will find any excuse not to do it. If everyone in the world could do this, everyone would have a lot more clarity. That is something I totally believe.

James: Completely agree, and it’s something that I do with the clients that I coach. It’s one of the early steps, is to get them to think about this, because if, for example, you’ve got a creative free-thinker who likes their independence; if they’re applying for an accountancy graduate scheme with one of the big four companies, it might not be the right environment for them and it’s not just a negative thing to find out what you don’t want to do, it’s also a positive thing. Because if you can walk into an interview knowing that this is really what you want and it’s really important to you – you know they ask you why you want to work at company X – and you’re able to tell them honestly that this is what you’re passionate about and this is what you love doing –  solving problems or being creative and drawing or whatever it might be – you’re just going to stand so far above everybody else who comes in there and goes ‘oh well you know I want the International opportunity that your company has’, or whatever it might be. Just that thinking that you can put in just really, really helps.

Matt: Yeah it’s just true. And that’s the other thing – knowing what you want will make you want to stand out, you will put the extra effort in, you will wake up early to do it, you will stay up later to do it. It’s all, it might be cliche fine, but that is the truth and it will make you put more effort in. And you will be able to be more creative and you will stand out and who do you think’s gonna get hired?




James: I completely agree. And that leads us nicely again on to the next point from the book, which was ‘What’s the thing you love and want to make better?’ Could you explain this one for us?

Matt: Yes I can. So, this was really, this was a late addition to the book but I had to put this in because– so basically I was listening to a podcast and it was with Penn Jillette  – y’know out of Penn and Teller the magicians? I promise I’m going somewhere with this and he basically said, If you like rock music and you like the Rolling Stones, he goes then, he was almost saying, don’t do that. Don’t try to be The Stones, they’ve already got you covered, why do you the need to go and do that?

And it made me think about when I first started writing articles; it was because I was reading all these articles a day about being an entrepreneur and some about being a writer at that time, y’know life lessons and what I learnt from this, and I honestly thought to myself these aren’t even that good. I think I could do better. That’s what I genuinely thought and that’s what got me started in writing. And I don’t think that, when I look at sculptures, for example – the statue of David is one everyone would know – but I look at that and just think. Man, how anyone could do that is just beyond me. I’m in awe of it. But, I don’t think I could do better. I’m just happy to be in awe of it and there’s no jealousy, there’s no negative emotion, I just think ‘Wow. That is incredible.’ But with writing, like I said, I saw it and I thought it was– and even now it’s gone on to another level where I think, ‘That is really good, wow’, but then I still think, ‘But how could I do better? How could I be better than that and how can I, obviously still write with my voice and my style, but how can I do better than that?’

So I sort of started thinking ‘Matt, these aren’t any good, I think I could do better’ and now when I read an amazing bit of writing I think ‘You know what? That’s the standard now. That’s what I want to be better than.’ So it’s almost that kind of that extra thought, whether it’s you think something isn’t even that good, and maybe you’re right or wrong but that’s just your opinion whether you think it’s good or not. Or maybe thinking, that is amazing but I think I could do better. It’s almost just that extra, thought – but I think I can do better, or maybe I can do better. For me, I didn’t realise that until a few months ago when I listened to that podcast and I was like, ‘Wow yeah, that’s true! That’s how I got into writing’. So I think that’s definitely something worth thinking about.

James: You can see that in a graduate context if you’re really into fashion or retail and you see dresses and you think ‘Well actually maybe that could be changed and I could improve this.’ Or you’re stood in a shop and the queues are big and you think ‘If I was managing this I’d change these operational process to improve this to no end.’

Matt: Yeah, exactly.

James: Then you’re going down the right path and you want to be putting that passion into practice

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

James: So the next in the book are the fourth and fifth tips, which I thought were really, really good ones, relate to blogging. You talk about how graduates should start a blog for different industries and companies. Why do you think this is such a powerful tool for them to use?

Matt: I think because it just gets your name out there. You can already start to build a reputation for yourself before you’ve even stepped foot in the working world, and I think now more than ever blogging is available to everyone. Even at that stage, you don’t need to have your own domain name or anything like that. Like I said, just put it on LinkedIn, put it on Medium. You can start your own blog, obviously if you can, but you don’t even need to I don’t think. Just put stuff out there. Like I said to put it on LinkedIn and Medium, but send it to people in the Industry, send it to people you admire within the Industry. Send it to competitors of the companies you want to apply for. Send it to the CEOs if you’re going to write articles about them. ‘10 Things I love about so-and-so CEO…’ and I’ve given some hints and tips.

But honestly, I think it’s just a good way for you to get a reputation before you even start working, which I think is just so valuable. If you get big enough then you’re going to start having people come to you. You’re going to start having companies saying ‘Oh, We want you to work for us’, and then you can start dictating the terms a little bit. It depends how big the blog gets or how often you write, if you can write something every day. The blog post doesn’t have to be 1,000 words it can be like 500 words, 250 words even. If it’s good content, it’s good. There’s no rule about it has to be this many words. So if you write about 250 words which is like nothing, I promise you, then if you did that five days a week Monday to Friday, put it on LinkedIn, Medium and I’ve given you your first 10 posts.

If you want any more ideas for posts you can go to my blog or just email me, I quite enjoy helping with this stuff and ideas and things like that. So I put at the end of the chapter if you’re still thinking, why should I do this for free then don’t do it. Well honestly because nobody knows who you are yet. Unless you’re already a reputable writer and have got published content and all this sort of stuff, no one, why would they pay you? That’s not what this is about. This is about adding value, it’s about getting your name out there. It won’t even take long to do, that’s the whole thing, writing a blog post on these things could take an hour a day maybe. So could you watch an hour less TV a day? Could you wake up an hour earlier? Could you start pre-drinking an hour later? Whatever it is, it’s again, how important is it to you?

I said a blog, but if you don’t like writing it could be a video blog, it could be anything. You could do Snapchat – it’s getting really big now – you could even do something on there and tell the company that you’re doing it and tell them to follow you and tell them to get the word out there. This is all about getting your name out there, yes, and in a way that helps the company, that adds value to the company, because that’s what they’re going to care about. I don’t think a company is going to hire you because you want to fulfil your dream. That’s wonderful for you of course, and I hope it happens. But that’s not enough. The company wants value, so add value in a way that they’re going to appreciate then they will add value to you.

James: I complete agree and it’s linked to the first two things we talked about today which is one: do something every day, so you could do this blogging every day and also: what’s important to you? If it’s something that’s important to you then you’ll find a way to make it happen. It doesn’t have to be a specific blog. When I spoke in Episode 21 with the CTO of a data science company in London Prash Majmudar, he talked about one of the things they looked for in candidates is, have they got, not just a CV, but have they got online websites where they’ve done programming and they’ve done data mining. Because if you’re into this, this is the sort of stuff you’ll want to do and you’ll do it anyway. And don’t put on your CV that you’re great at data mining, show them. Send them a link to your website. If you’re applying to a fashion company or you’re into PR don’t just say ‘Oh, y’know, I really like writing’, just give them a link to your blog–

Matt: Absolutely

James: with your top thoughts on the fashion industry today, or where Topshop’s latest collection gets it right and gets it wrong or whatever it might be. It doesn’t matter what industry you’re after or you’re applying to, you’re interested in. You can find something to talk about whether you’re a plane spotter talking about the latest launch strategies at Easyjet to anything. If you’re interested in it, then this is such a brilliant opportunity to prove that you’re passionate and interested in it.

Matt: Yeah, it’s so true. Like you said anyone can tell anyone anything. But just show them, I pitch to places to write and things like that. I don’t just say ‘Oh, I’m really good at writing’ or ‘I love writing’ I just say these are the things I’d like to write for you, here’s my writing, there you go. It’s like you said, anyone can tell someone, show them, do it.

James: So for listeners who are listening, who think ‘I can understand that, it sounds good. But who am I? Who am I to start pontificating on a particular industry or company?’ What advice would you give them to give them the confidence to step forward, to put pen to paper so to speak?

Matt: I would say, nobody… nobody else in the world can tell the stories that you can tell. No matter how old you are, no matter who you are, it doesn’t matter. You are the only one that can tell your story so, for example, let’s say there’s one here that’s like 10 reasons why I want to join company X, whatever it is. Start by saying, ‘Oh, when I was little my dad was really interested in planes and so that’s how he got me interested and he took me to an air show and all this stuff. Tell your stories, tell your personal stories, because for me I think that’s what people care about. Anybody, in a way, can do lots of research and you still need to do that as well, but it’s about telling you own stories. Tell your stories of why you want to join the company. If you say you like the training opportunities, which could be considered generic, then tell your story about why. Tell them: why is training so important to you; what experience have you had from past training; has it really enlightened you; why do you think it’s important in a job to even have training. Tell your own stories, because you’re the only one that can tell them. It doesn’t matter who you are, how old you are, how much experience you have – whatever that means – you are the only one who can tell your stories. So I think that is encouragement enough for anyone.




James: Definitely, and with these things you just need to get it out there.

Matt: Yeah absolutely. And if anyone’s still thinking, ‘Oh I dunno’, send me an email, tweet me, whatever, we’ll talk through it. There’s any number of ways you can frame it, you can even say ‘Well, who would you hire?’ The graduate who says they can do something or the graduate that’s done it? There’s any number of ways you can frame it. But if you’re still thinking, ‘Oh I dunno, I’m not sure’, then just get in touch.

James: Excellent. And everything we’ve discussed, all the show notes and links – to Matt’s website and writing and his book will be all available in the show notes at graduatejobpodcast.com. So the next tip we’re going to cover is one which is invaluable and works specifically very well with all aspects of the recruitment process from the research to the writing of your CV or the application, whatever it is. It is your tip ‘Do one more thing.’

Matt: Yeah.

James: Why is this so important?

Matt: So this can be difficult, I’m not gonna lie because almost, the moment gets further away the more you do it, but the moment you want to do one more thing is when you think ‘Oh I’m tired’, or ‘I cannot be bothered to do one more single thing. I just want to stop, I just want to watch TV, I just want to relax’. That is the moment when you– when I know I must realise that I’m in control of my thoughts and feelings. I don’t have to give in to them, I can listen to them, think ‘okay, maybe that’s what I’m thinking, but ultimately I am conscious and I have a choice’. So again this is another thing that’s really just going to make you stand out, that’s going to make your application just better, it’s going to make you– it’s going to do you justice.

You’re going to spend another 10 minutes looking at your application, you’re going to edit something that wasn’t quite right, you’re going to do one more bit of research, that’s your research, and no one else has thought to do. You’re going to connect with five more people on LinkedIn and send five more emails to people. You’re going to write one more blog post, in my case, or you’re going to edit one more chapter. Or you’re going to do another half an hours work on marketing or advertising the blog or whatever it is. Really it’s the moment when you can almost think to yourself, when you’re thinking about ‘I’m going to go watch TV now, I’m going to just chill out for a bit’. Then is the moment when, and it’s kind of a practice, to be honest, then is the moment you think ‘Okay, I can do one more thing now’, and hey, look, you don’t have to, again you have a choice, but you think ‘I could do one more thing now, how much do I want it? How important is it to me? Who am I? Am I someone who is gonna do one more thing? Am I someone who’s going to keep doing one more thing?’ These are just the things that will separate you ultimately. Again, like I’ve said, just how important is it to you?

James: Completely. The way I used to look at it, was it was trying to drag myself when I didn’t want to do it, as you mentioned, it’s always when you’re tired or your devil on your shoulder’s telling you that you’ve done enough, it’s alright just stop and relax a bit. It’s doing the one more thing, that everyone else who’s applying isn’t going to do. Because ultimately that’s what it comes down to if you think just how competitive it is at the moment, with how many thousands of people applying for each graduate scheme or whatever it is, or how many people applying for each job. you need to do the one thing that’s gonna make you stand out above everybody else. Whether that is one more spell check of the application, whether it is giving it to one more person just to proofread to make sure it’s alright or one more article you’re going to read about the company to make sure that you really, really know everything about them and just doing– kind of dragging yourself to do the one thing that everybody else isn’t gonna do. Do it for yourself, stand out.

Matt: Yeah exactly, like you said, if you think to yourself how many people are applying, you don’t have control over that. All you have control over is how much you do, how important you make it to you, and like you said, it is the people that make that important to them and do it, are gonna just give themselves the best chance of being hired and getting what they want.

James: You talked in that answer there about connecting with people on LinkedIn which is your tip for number sixteen in the book.

Matt: Yeah.

James: What slant would you have on this to make it more unusual?

Matt: Yeah, that’s a good one. I think, to be honest, the slant that I’d have is connect with important people in the industry, but before you do that I would say research the industry, research them if they’re kind of well known and there’s a lot of information about them. Research their industry, research their company and connect with them and say ‘Hey, thanks a lot for connecting. I’m here because I’m so interested in the company and because I’m really interested in working for you. Here are ten ways that I thought you could improve the company’ or ‘Here are ten ways I thought you could attract more graduates’ or ‘Here are ten ways that I think I could publicise the company more’.

Ten ideas about anything to do with the company, I think that is a kind of an unusual way, because most people honestly, most people will connect with someone and only ask for things. Even I get it with the blog posts people – and I don’t always mind necessarily – people say ‘Oh can you help me with my writing or can you help me with this problem and stuff’, and like I said, sometimes I don’t mind but it’s always people connect because they want something from you. If you connect with something, add value to the person, give something to them, send them ten ideas of how you think the company could do better like I said, have a better ten ideas for a blog you could start about the company that you’ll do free of charge for them. So I think rather than asking for something, give something that the person is going to value.

James: I completely agree, it’s a really good point and also as you say, if you do connect with people don’t just try and connect with one graduate or one person from the company because you’re gonna probably be disappointed.

Matt: Yeah, just do everyone you can, why not?! Like you said, if there’s one person you’re putting your expectations on and they don’t reply for a week or whatever, then you might think ‘Oh well, they obviously don’t blah blah blah…’ First of all, people have other things to do. So yeah just put it out there to every single person you can. There’s nothing stopping you.

James: And joining groups on LinkedIn is a top way to be able to contact people nice and easily, so join the groups for the companies or the industries you’re interested in and also the alumni groups because then you can message people without having them as a contact, which is a top tip. But it’s the easiest way to get in touch with grads who have been on your course, who are doing the grad scheme that you want to get on and just ask them, ask them questions about what advice would you give me? You’re where I want to be, how did you do it? How can I get to where you are? People are invariably nice. They’re busy but they’re invariably nice and if they can help you they probably will help you.

Matt: Yes, I agree.

James: One of the– you mentioned it earlier, the fourteenth tip in your book is for people to use the website Quora. So a couple of points, one, why do you think this is a winner and maybe before that, what is Quora? What is the website?

Matt: Quora is a question and answer website, put very simply they bill themselves as the best answer to any question. It was founded by, the guy who was I believe the first CTO of Facebook, Adam D’Angelo, and so he knows what he’s doing. It’s just an amazing website because first of all there’s going to be loads of people in the same position as you. There’s a lot of people asking ‘How do I get a job? What do recruiters really look for? What are recruiters impressed by? What are some good interview tips?’ I’ve answered quite a few questions on there about what’s some good career advice, and also, there’s a lot of people on there who– I’ve put there [in the book] writers and entrepreneurs and CEOs, recruiters, other employees, professors, lecturers, even the president’s on there, so there’ll be someone on Quora who’s done what you want to do.

It’s pretty much as simple as that, whether it is their own company or they’ve nailed an interview at a really hard company to get into, or written a book, or is a millionaire, works for NASA, works for Apple, whatever. Where else can you learn so directly from the source? And again, Like I said, there’ll be loads of people who are at college or university and maybe they know what they want to do but there’s just as many if not a lot more people who just have no idea what to do. So if that’s you as well, well then go out. I’ve actually put here [in the book] links to a lot of my answers there – some of the more popular ones so they’ll be useful to look at. But again, there’s questions like, what’s the best thing you learned at university? How can I figure out what I really want to do with my life after college? What are the 21 things to know before turning 21? So it’s a lot of stuff like that, so I think Quora for me, it’s just so valuable. I read stuff on there every single day. I learn directly from–  there’s a guy on there, Richard Miller, who’s a Physics Professor and he’s written books and stuff. And it just is mind blowing some of the stuff I read on there so I think, again, I would suggest anyone getting a Quora account. It’s going to add a lot of value to their life.

James: Definitely one for the listeners to check out. Next tip you recommend joining ‘My Kind of Future’

Matt: Yeah

James: This was a new one for me, the website, so could you let us know what ‘My Kind of Future’ is and what they do?

Matt: Yeah Absolutely. So really ‘My Kind of Future’ is basically– they connect employers and students, but they do it in best kind of ways – with events and with talks at Schools and Universities; big events where all of their representatives go. And honestly, the students that I’ve talked to that are part of ‘My Kind of Future’ put a lot of stuff in there. They are more confident, they’re easier to talk to, they have more of an idea of what they want to do, they know how to talk to employers, and honestly, just seem like better candidates overall. And the people who work at ‘My Kind of Future’ who, I know quite a few, they’re all just so enthusiastic and knowledgeable and excited and just have all kinds of experience and they just want to help and they can help, they know how to help. To not join a ‘My Kind of Future’ society, I think would be a big mistake, to be honest. And again, there’ll be people saying ‘Oh I don’t have time for this’, and fine, I’m not going to convince you, but it’s like I said, there’s all the benefits there and I think not joining a society would be a mistake, absolutely.

James: And I’ll link to ‘My Kind of Future’ in the show notes. So, unfortunately, Matt, time is running away with us but let’s tackle one final tip and it’s quite counter-intuitive, it’s the final tip, to ‘Give Up’.




Matt: So really, to be honest, this is just about– I kind of told my own stories about–  this is ultimately– we’re taught to never give up and things like that, and it’s just a different spin on it but, what about giving up thinking that you can’t do what you want? What about giving up thinking that you have to do what your parents want you to do? Or what about giving up thinking that you’re not good enough to work at the company you really want to work at, or start your own business, or whatever it is. I like the term ‘give up’ because it is a bit counter-intuitive and it’s just a choice and it’s like a relief almost. It’s like when are you just going to give up judging yourself for knowing what you want to do and when are you going to give up not giving yourself a mission and when are you going to give up not being a leader in your own life?

I think it’s so important and I honestly try to think every single day what can I give up today? Is there anything? Am I being who I really am? Is there anything? Am I listening to other people’s expectations for me too much? And it’s not just people around me, but random people, and the news and social media and stuff like that and I think it’s very important to ask yourself, what can I give up? Can I give up? Am I judging myself? Am I thinking I can’t do what I really wanna do and am I thinking do I know what I want to do but I just think I’m not good enough to do that? Giving up those things is when you become more. It’s as simple as that and that’s exactly how I feel when I give things up. I think right I’m gonna– I actually wrote a mini-book on this as well which is free if you go to my website. But I basically said, what about giving up judging myself for wanting to write this book about giving up? It wouldn’t have ever been written, it wouldn’t have had the feedback it’s had so I think it’s very important to think about what you can give up and I like it because it is a choice and really then if you think you want to give up judging yourself for knowing what you want to do and if you can’t, if you feel like you can’t give up then again you need to ask yourself what’s stopping me because it is a choice so I think this is like you said, unconventional, but just so important.

James: Completely agree, I know that when I went– after I’d finished university I went into looking for a job with a lot of preconceived ideas about the type of job I needed to get, the type of job I needed to do, the amount of money that I wanted to get paid, where I wanted to work, and some of these were ideas that I’d been carrying around for a long time. And some of them were mine and some of them were my family’s ideas ‘you can’t get a job like that after spending four years at university’, and I think it goes back to what we said earlier about thinking about what you really want and what you really want to do. Are some of those preconceived ideas you’re carrying about serving you in trying to get the job that actually will make you happy?

Matt: Yeah, absolutely, I’d like to totally agree. And again, if there’s anything people spend time on, spend time on this because this is just something that’s really helped me. when I took redundancy from the corporate world and the corporate life, I did give up thinking – firstly, what will other people think of me, and what will my parents think of me? And did give those things up and it did just make the decision so much easier and like I said it was one of the best decisions I’ve ever made and 100% the right decision. And again, it’s not for me to convince anyone, but that’s just what happened to me and it’s just been amazing for me.

James: I think we saved the best one ’til last then Matt.

Matt: Yeah, let’s hope so, I do like that one.

James: So moving on now to the weekly staple of questions, you’ve had these before so I’m hoping you’re going to give some new but equally good answers. I’ve not pre-warned you. So first off, it’s been eight or nine months since we last spoke, what one book would you recommend our listeners should read?

Matt: I am going to recommend a different book. I remember the one I recommended last time. now I’m going to recommend, obviously apart from my own book, I’m going to recommend The Obstacle is the Way and that’s by Ryan Holiday. He writes a lot about an old philosophy that some of the Greeks had, that’s stoicism. Basically, it’s talking about whenever there is an obstacle in your path and there is something that happens that stops you, it’s not about succeeding in spite of that. It’s about succeeding because of that. I alluded to it at the beginning of the book actually. When I said I’d written all of this book and then I accidentally saved over it again with the draft version and I was like ‘this cannot be happening’. I’d written all this, spent hours on end and at first I was annoyed, I was like, ‘oh my god, I cannot believe this has all gone’, but then I used exactly that. I thought, ‘Well look the obstacle is the way’ and the me who was a little more smarter, was a little more wiser, who had already done this before, who had more experience – that me was now writing the book and then I was even more excited about writing because I was like ‘Well I can make it better. This is a chance for me to make it even better, even more easier to read, add even more value’, so that way of thinking was really– that sort of phrase really just changed my way of thinking. So absolutely that book made a huge impact on me.

James: It’s one I’ve heard mentioned several times, it’s one I definitely need to add to my list of things to read.

Matt: Yeah it’s awesome.

James: So next up, what one website would you recommend listeners need to check out to help on their job search?

Matt: Again, apart from my own website, I would say–  think I will go with– one website? It’s a tough question, James! but I’m gonna go based on what I’ve written here in the book, it’s a really obvious one, but LinkedIn. And I think to do the things that are in the book: so connect with loads of grads; connect with loads of important people in the industry; connect with loads of CEOs; write blog posts on there. So it is about using that website, but perhaps using it differently from what you’ve used it for before. If you have even used it before. Use it be proactive and a creator, rather than reading other people’s content, be somebody who contributes to the website.

James: That’s a really good point. Finally then, what one tip should listeners implement today to help them on the job search?

Matt: I’m going to go with, do something. So do anything, but just promise yourself you’re gonna write for 15 minutes or half an hour a day, 10 minutes a day, whatever. Just say ‘I’m going to do something’, and whether that’s any one of the tips in this book, whether that’s I’m going to write down some things that are important to me, whether that’s I’m going to write a blog post, whether that’s I’m going to reach out to someone, whether that’s I’m going to do 15 minutes of research and find the most obscure facts out about the company, I’m going to go to page 10 of google and read something on there. So I think just promise yourself that you’re gonna do something, and don’t even be hard on yourself about it, just do, like I said, 10-15 minutes to do one thing. Start the habit, y’know habits are started by choices. Choose to do something today and see where it takes you.

James: Matt, that’s a great point for us to finish. Where can people find out more about you and the writing that you do?

Matt: Really, just the blog is probably the best place. It’s matthearnden.com, which I guess we can put in the notes again. At the moment, I’m giving my new book away for free and the book is called It’s Okay to Give Up it’s a short book about letting go so you can get that book for free if you go to the website. So that’s a good place to start.

James: Excellent, and everything will be linked to in the show notes so check out graduatejobpodcast.com and you’ll be able to find Matt and his big cheesy grin, all links to his website and everything like that.

Matt: Cool.

James: Matt, thank you very much for appearing on the graduate job podcast.

Matt: Thanks a lot, James; I’ll speak to you soon.

James: My thanks again to Matt Hearnden, second time on the show and you can see why I wanted to get him back.

Closing point from me before we finish, we discussed there 7 of Matt’s 18 points, and everyone is a winner. Matt is very kindly offering listeners free copies of his book, so bag yourself one at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/Matt . Now what is important isn’t that you listen today and think that was nice, or read them and think they make sense. What is important is that you decide to implement them and put them into practice. You don’t need to do all 18, see it as a pic n mix and go for the ones that are relevant to you at your current stage of your job hunt. But make sure you do follow them. As the saying goes ‘if you do what you’ve always done, you’ll get what you’ve always got’. So break the cycle, read, listen and digest these, and the do the one more thing, and you’ll see your job search blossom as a result! Thanks for listening, please leave me a review on iTunes if you’ve enjoyed the show, if you want to get in touch you can contact me on twitter @gradjobpodcast, or hello@graduatejobpodcast.com let me know if you’re enjoying the show and I love to hear your success stories of jobs and internships you’ve got. Also say hello to Matt who is on @Matt_Hearnden. Please do check out my short couple of questions at www.graduatejobpodcast.com/survey it will be a big help! Stay tuned next week when I have content marketing expert Chris Marr on as we talk about….content marketing funnily enough. I hope you enjoyed the today, but more importantly, I hope you use it, and apply it. See you next week.

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